{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3438", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3438, "subject": "Why is a chem needed...", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-09-03T15:29:29+00:00", "last": "2002-09-07T03:14:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-09-03T17:02:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) RE: Why is a chem needed...", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hope not to come off as strident in this posting, but that's probably not\npossible :\n\nSeveral posts have argued that \"it is not necessary for Hyacinth to be a\ntranssexual chem.\" This is a response to that, especially to Mr. Friedman\nwho has so very articulately made the argument recently. There are several\ntextual requirements, some of which I've only firmed up since these postings\nbegan.\n\n1) Hy's name suggests she's a chem; also, why is it \"lie\" that Hy\noverpowered the pilot? (despite Mr. Friedman's suggestion that Horn \"got it\nwrong\"?\n\n2) Load's of hints that's she's male including her name (ala Hyacinthus) and\nSilk's none to subtle association with Apollo\n\n3) Silk's conversation with Horn after Hy overpowers the pilot, suggests\nshe's a male chem. Otherwise, what does the plight of male chems have to do\nwith why Silk tried to kill himself? Why is the relationship between Hy and\nHammerstone so unique? Why do THEY among all others get along as equals?\nSilk asserts the answer is in this conversation. Can anybody else tie the\npieces together in to one single explanation?\n\nThematic threads woven into the story by Wolfe (not by me) suggest something\n\"not right\" with Hyacinth. What secret Hy and Chenille hiding? Mr. Friedman\nhas pointed out that Chenille is a sexually ambivalent name - Wolfe goes out\nof his way to define the name with it's MALE definition rather than the\nFEMALE one. She's the lover of Auk who is thematically linked to Silk (as a\nkind of \"soul doppelganger\") in so many ways it will take four essays to\ndescribe them. It is quite reasonable to ask how are Silk's and Auk's love\naffairs are similar?\n\nMr. Friedman seems to agree with me on the import of every clue I name but\ndoes not see a need for a larger conclusion - either regarding Hy or the\nwoven themes I've delineated. IMO we agree that the recipe is to mix flour,\neggs, milk, and sugar, and bake it. But Mr. Friedman wants to call it \"Baked\nFlour, Eggs, Milk, and Sugar\" while I want to call it \"Cake.\"\n\nHere's the situation as I see it. There are parts of Hyacinth scattered\naround throughout the Long Sun books. Some are female, some are bio, some\nare male, and some are chem. How does one put all these pieces together?\nSome parts must be \"real\" and others ornamental? Since Hy is *ostensibly* a\nfemale bio, it seems likely that the chem and male parts are non-ornamental.\n\nI would looove to opt for a simpler theory in which Hy is a bio woman with\nmale chem parts inside. It would be simpler. But there's no evidence of it\nin the text.\n\nWhen I originally published the Hyacinth citation in \"Thelx's Mirrors\", I\nhad only a vague certainty that she had to be chem and a sense that the\nclues pointed to her being Male. I have a more solid grasp on the\naffirmative clues now (albeit no real explanation for the negative evidences\n(which I of course consider to be \"lies\"). I'll update the Hyacinth citation\nin the near future to give a more detailed, less disjointed explanation of\nthe clues that point affirmatively to Hy being a male chem.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-09-03T17:15:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) RE: Why is a chem needed...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"It's probably a good thing that I don't read that mailing list.\"\n -- Gene Wolfe\n\n___" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, James Wynn wrote:\nI hope not to come off as strident in this posting, but that's probably not\npossible :\n\nSeveral posts have argued that \"it is not necessary for Hyacinth to be a\ntranssexual chem.\" This is a response to that, especially to Mr. Friedman\nwho has so very articulately made the argument recently. There are several\ntextual requirements, some of which I've only firmed up since these postings\nbegan.\n\n1) Hy's name suggests she's a chem; also, why is it \"lie\" that Hy\noverpowered the pilot? (despite Mr. Friedman's suggestion that Horn \"got it\nwrong\"?\n\n2) Load's of hints that's she's male including her name (ala Hyacinthus) and\nSilk's none to subtle association with Apollo\n\n3) Silk's conversation with Horn after Hy overpowers the pilot, suggests\nshe's a male chem. Otherwise, what does the plight of male chems have to do\nwith why Silk tried to kill himself? Why is the relationship between Hy and\nHammerstone so unique? Why do THEY among all others get along as equals?\nSilk asserts the answer is in this conversation. Can anybody else tie the\npieces together in to one single explanation?\n\nThematic threads woven into the story by Wolfe (not by me) suggest something\n\"not right\" with Hyacinth. What secret Hy and Chenille hiding? Mr. Friedman\nhas pointed out that Chenille is a sexually ambivalent name - Wolfe goes out\nof his way to define the name with it's MALE definition rather than the\nFEMALE one. She's the lover of Auk who is thematically linked to Silk (as a\nkind of \"soul doppelganger\") in so many ways it will take four essays to\ndescribe them. It is quite reasonable to ask how are Silk's and Auk's love\naffairs are similar?\n\nMr. Friedman seems to agree with me on the import of every clue I name but\ndoes not see a need for a larger conclusion - either regarding Hy or the\nwoven themes I've delineated. IMO we agree that the recipe is to mix flour,\neggs, milk, and sugar, and bake it. But Mr. Friedman wants to call it \"Baked\nFlour, Eggs, Milk, and Sugar\" while I want to call it \"Cake.\"\n\nHere's the situation as I see it. There are parts of Hyacinth scattered\naround throughout the Long Sun books. Some are female, some are bio, some\nare male, and some are chem. How does one put all these pieces together?\nSome parts must be \"real\" and others ornamental? Since Hy is *ostensibly* a\nfemale bio, it seems likely that the chem and male parts are non-ornamental.\n\nI would looove to opt for a simpler theory in which Hy is a bio woman with\nmale chem parts inside. It would be simpler. But there's no evidence of it\nin the text.\n\nWhen I originally published the Hyacinth citation in \"Thelx's Mirrors\", I\nhad only a vague certainty that she had to be chem and a sense that the\nclues pointed to her being Male. I have a more solid grasp on the\naffirmative clues now (albeit no real explanation for the negative evidences\n(which I of course consider to be \"lies\"). I'll update the Hyacinth citation\nin the near future to give a more detailed, less disjointed explanation of\nthe clues that point affirmatively to Hy being a male chem.\n\n-- Crush\n\n\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-09-03T15:29:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) RE: Why is a chem needed...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a thought. Auk is to Silk as Hildegrin is to Severian?\n\nHildegrin is in some ways Severian's dark/underworld/criminal twin. He is\npresent at the rebirth of Severian's mother/lover Dorcas: in fact rescues\nand advises Severian at that time: so he is a sort of psychopomp. In his\nterminal conflict with Apu-Punchau/Severian in the Stone Town he is killed\n**because** he does not recognise the union of Severian with his client (as\nI read it)\n\nCan anyone draw out other threads here?\n\n\n Andy R\n\n\n\nout" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of his way to define the name with it's MALE definition rather than the\nFEMALE one. She's the lover of Auk who is thematically linked to Silk (as\na\nkind of \"soul doppelganger\") in so many ways it will take four essays to\ndescribe them. It is quite reasonable to ask how are Silk's and Auk's love\naffairs are similar?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-09-07T03:14:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) RE: Why is a chem needed...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 3 Sep 2002, James Wynn wrote:\nWhy is the relationship between Hy and\nHammerstone so unique? Why do THEY among all others get along as equals?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because Hammerstone is one of the few men who looks at her eyes when he\ntalks with her.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }