{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3444", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3444, "subject": "Was Jonas a Chem?", "messages": 8, "voices": 7, "first": "2002-09-06T05:01:11+00:00", "last": "2002-09-09T17:58:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Reeves", "address": "abreeves at mail.utexas.edu" }, "date": "2002-09-06T05:01:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Was Jonas a Chem?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The recent discussion on chems and their nature has caused me to weigh\nin with a few brief thoughts. The first of these is that though there\nare a lot of technological questions involving the chems and their\nfunction, we ought to remember that this is getting on 50k to a million\nyears hence, at which point Clarke's Law ought to be in full effect. So\nI think that Wolfe can engage in just about any sort of handwaving in\nthat regard.\n\nSomething else that may or may not have come up in years past, but which\nI haven't noticed, is the question as to whether or not Jonas in not a\nchem who (like Marble) was repaired partially with human parts. Indeed,\nthere is a lot of weirdness going on with his personality that rather\nreminds me of what happened when Marble merged with Rose (not in the\nparticulars, just that things are... odd). Still, these are just random\nthoughts, and _New Sun_, having been written before _Long Sun_ would not\ntake a future work into account.\n\nStill, what do others think?\n\nAndrew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-09-06T08:10:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Was Jonas a Chem?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Andrew Reeves wrote:\nSomething else that may or may not have come up in years past, but which\nI haven't noticed, is the question as to whether or not Jonas in not a\nchem who (like Marble) was repaired partially with human parts. Indeed,\nthere is a lot of weirdness going on with his personality that rather\nreminds me of what happened when Marble merged with Rose (not in the\nparticulars, just that things are... odd). Still, these are just random\nthoughts, and _New Sun_, having been written before _Long Sun_ would not\ntake a future work into account." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Jonas's nature has been discussed before, and I'm still waiting for an\nanswer to my question of just what the hell he thought he was going to do\nwith Jolenta, even if she was willing. \n\nBut, no, Jonas wasn't a chem, at least not one like those on the _Whorl_.\nJonas was very light weight, as Sev noticed when he picked him up in the\nAntechamber. Male chems are _much_ heavier than humans. Even female chems\nare heavier than same-sized humans. Rose was a human with some man-made\nreplacement parts, including human-looking hands. It was some of those\nman-made parts that Marble appropriated for herself. So far as I am aware,\n_none_ of Rose's biological parts were taken. Marble ran test routines for\neach part she tried, rejecting some. For one thing, Rose's biological parts\nwere pretty much spent, due to her age. Even if it were possible, which I\ndoubt, I don't think there is any instance of biological parts being used by\na chem in the LS/SS books.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-09-06T08:35:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Was Jonas a Chem?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/09/2002 06:01:11 Andrew Reeves wrote:\nSomething else that may or may not have come up in years past, but which\nI haven't noticed, is the question as to whether or not Jonas in not a\nchem who (like Marble) was repaired partially with human parts. Indeed,\nthere is a lot of weirdness going on with his personality that rather\nreminds me of what happened when Marble merged with Rose (not in the\nparticulars, just that things are... odd). Still, these are just random\nthoughts, and _New Sun_, having been written before _Long Sun_ would not\ntake a future work into account." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My view is that Jonas' nature, beit robot / android / chem, cannot be\nsimply determined, if at all.\n\nThe impression I have is that the Chems were the product of Typhon/Pas'\nrelatively limited technology. They concept may have been based on the\nmuch more sophisticated created persons such as Jonas but no where near\nmatches it in execution.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-09-06T16:26:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Was Jonas a Chem?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew asked if Jonas was a chem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Something else that may or may not have come up in years past, but which\nI haven't noticed, is the question as to whether or not Jonas in not a\nchem who (like Marble) was repaired partially with human parts. Indeed,\nthere is a lot of weirdness going on with his personality that rather\nreminds me of what happened when Marble merged with Rose (not in the\nparticulars, just that things are... odd)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I will add my voice with those saying that Jonas is not a chem. Yes, he is\na robot, but of a different evolutionary line of descent: he is a \"hollow\nman\" type, which developed from pressure suits and powered exoskeletons.\nBecause he is of smaller size than the \"iron man\" class represented by\nSidero (who is big enough that a man like Severian can climb inside him and\nwear him like the hard suit that he is), Jonas is presumably of the silvery\ncommand class seen in passing on the starship _Tzadkiel_.\n\nFrom another angle: Jonas is a sailor, not a soldier.\n\nHaving writ that, still I agree (most others will too) that Jonas has been\nrepaired with biological parts. And yes, this is a very Oz-like bit of\nmagic which is not like the Rose/Marble situation (where robotic hardware\nis recycled from a dead bio to a living chem).\n\nHalf-facetiously Roy asks what Jonas would do with Jolenta if he could find\nher; which relates to robotic love (rather than sexual congress--I believe\nthe text makes it clear Jonas has no external male reproductive organ), if\nI read it right. That is, Roy questions Jonas's love, because Jonas is a\nrobot (Roy does not question the love of a man who has no external male\nreproductive organ; nor the possibility of Platonic Love).\n\nMy sense is that Jonas's prosthetics have actually made him part-human in\nsoftware (as mirror to how a cyborg is \"part machine\" in hardware), making\nhim capable of loving (if robot sailors cannot love) or loving a human (if\nrobots can love robots but not love humans). And every man loves/desires\nJolenta! (So in this sense I agree that the exchange of parts has had a\ncorresponding software effect as might happen in the Rose/Marble case, even\nthough the parts are of different categories.)\n\nIn addition, Jonas might well love Jolenta for the things they have in\ncommon: both are part artificial (her cosmetic implants, his prosthetics);\nboth are part robot (she is Talos's hypnotic slave); and both have\npseudonyms (that begin with \"Jo-,\" hinting at twinning or alike-ness) they\nreceived after their traumatic reinventions.\n\nJonas steps into the mirrors after speaking of being repaired. When next\nwe see him, he is fully biological. I have often speculated that in Yesod\nhis biological prosthetics were expanded into a full biological body into\nwhich the Jonas-software was integrated . . . along with the biological\nsoftware that was present-yet-dormant in the prosthetics, now full-blown in\nthe reconstructed bio body.\n\n(A somewhat cleaner version is that the Jonas-spirit was drawn from Yesod\nby the Claw to ride the body of the annonymous dead soldier.)\n\nIn any event, two personalities in one body.\n\nSo I agree as to possible software weirdness in both Marble and Jonas being\na result of their use of external hardware replacements; that the weirdness\ninvolves a degree of personality transfer ranging from \"dilute\" to\n\"potentially overpowering.\" OTOH Jonas is not a chem of the Whorl.\n\nSide note: re chem power systems, iirc the talus had a fusion power plant,\nnot a chemical power plant.\n\n=mantis=\n\nGene Wolfe at WorldCon report coming soon!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-09-07T03:22:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Was Jonas a Chem?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nSide note: re chem power systems, iirc the talus had a fusion power plant,\nnot a chemical power plant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, iirc, Hammerstone makes some comment about using water or water\nvapor as fuel - which I took to be short hand for the standard SF fusion\nplant: water in; hydrogen, oxygen, and power out.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Filipe Silva", "address": "lafey at netcabo.pt" }, "date": "2002-09-07T23:03:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Was Jonas a Chem?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've given some thought on this thread, and even knowing I'm certainly not\nthe most versed person in GW's works (since I only read The Book of the New\nSun) - I insist on presenting my two cents of contribution:\nThe prefix \"Jo\" found in Jonas and Jolenta could be understood or read as\n\"IO\". Well I-O suggests automation or programmed reflex action - (like the\none we find when we press a letter on the keyboard and it appears on the\nscreen).\n\nAny thoughts?\n\nHumbly,\nFilipe Silva" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-09-09T17:58:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Was Jonas a Chem?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In addition, Jonas might well love Jolenta for the things they have in\ncommon: both are part artificial (her cosmetic implants, his\nprosthetics);\nboth are part robot (she is Talos's hypnotic slave); and both have\npseudonyms (that begin with \"Jo-,\" hinting at twinning or alike-ness)\nthey\nreceived after their traumatic reinventions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI suspect the same things as you about why Jonas is attracted to Jolenta,\nbut I still want to know why you say \"Jonas\" and \"Jolenta\" are pseudonyms.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Filipe Silva", "address": "lafey at netcabo.pt" }, "date": "2002-09-07T23:03:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Was Jonas a Chem?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've given some thought on this thread, and even knowing I'm=\n certainly not\nthe most versed person in GW's works (since I only read The Book=\n of the New\nSun) - I insist on presenting my two cents of contribution:\nThe prefix \"Jo\" found in Jonas and Jolenta could be understood or=\n read as\n\"IO\". Well I-O suggests automation or programmed reflex action -=\n (like the\none we find when we press a letter on the keyboard and it appears=\n on the\nscreen).\n\nAny thoughts?\n\nHumbly,\nFilipe Silva" } ] } ] }