Subject: (urth) Was Jonas a Chem?

From: Andrew Reeves <abreeves at mail.utexas.edu>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 05:01:11 +0000

The recent discussion on chems and their nature has caused me to weigh
in with a few brief thoughts.  The first of these is that though there
are a lot of technological questions involving the chems and their
function, we ought to remember that this is getting on 50k to a million
years hence, at which point Clarke's Law ought to be in full effect.  So
I think that Wolfe can engage in just about any sort of handwaving in
that regard.

Something else that may or may not have come up in years past, but which
I haven't noticed, is the question as to whether or not Jonas in not a
chem who (like Marble) was repaired partially with human parts.  Indeed,
there is a lot of weirdness going on with his personality that rather
reminds me of what happened when Marble merged with Rose (not in the
particulars, just that things are... odd).  Still, these are just random
thoughts, and _New Sun_, having been written before _Long Sun_ would not
take a future work into account.

Still, what do others think?

Andrew

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 08:10:20 +0000

>take a future work into account.

Yes, Jonas's nature has been discussed before, and I'm still waiting for an
answer to my question of just what the hell he thought he was going to do
with Jolenta, even if she was willing. <g>

But, no, Jonas wasn't a chem, at least not one like those on the _Whorl_.
Jonas was very light weight, as Sev noticed when he picked him up in the
Antechamber. Male chems are _much_ heavier than humans. Even female chems
are heavier than same-sized humans. Rose was a human with some man-made
replacement parts, including human-looking hands. It was some of those
man-made parts that Marble appropriated for herself. So far as I am aware,
_none_ of Rose's biological parts were taken. Marble ran test routines for
each part she tried, rejecting some. For one thing, Rose's biological parts
were pretty much spent, due to her age. Even if it were possible, which I
doubt, I don't think there is any instance of biological parts being used by
a chem in the LS/SS books.

-Roy

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 08:35:11 +0000

>take a future work into account.

My view is that Jonas' nature, beit robot / android / chem, cannot be
simply determined, if at all.

The impression I have is that the Chems were the product of Typhon/Pas'
relatively limited technology.  They concept may have been based on the
much more sophisticated created persons such as Jonas but no where near
matches it in execution.

Matthew

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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 16:26:35 +0000

Andrew asked if Jonas was a chem.
>particulars, just that things are... odd).

I will add my voice with those saying that Jonas is not a chem.  Yes, he is
a robot, but of a different evolutionary line of descent: he is a "hollow
man" type, which developed from pressure suits and powered exoskeletons.
Because he is of smaller size than the "iron man" class represented by
Sidero (who is big enough that a man like Severian can climb inside him and
wear him like the hard suit that he is), Jonas is presumably of the silvery
command class seen in passing on the starship _Tzadkiel_.

>From another angle: Jonas is a sailor, not a soldier.

Having writ that, still I agree (most others will too) that Jonas has been
repaired with biological parts.  And yes, this is a very Oz-like bit of
magic which is not like the Rose/Marble situation (where robotic hardware
is recycled from a dead bio to a living chem).

Half-facetiously Roy asks what Jonas would do with Jolenta if he could find
her; which relates to robotic love (rather than sexual congress--I believe
the text makes it clear Jonas has no external male reproductive organ), if
I read it right.  That is, Roy questions Jonas's love, because Jonas is a
robot (Roy does not question the love of a man who has no external male
reproductive organ; nor the possibility of Platonic Love).

My sense is that Jonas's prosthetics have actually made him part-human in
software (as mirror to how a cyborg is "part machine" in hardware), making
him capable of loving (if robot sailors cannot love) or loving a human (if
robots can love robots but not love humans).  And every man loves/desires
Jolenta!  (So in this sense I agree that the exchange of parts has had a
corresponding software effect as might happen in the Rose/Marble case, even
though the parts are of different categories.)

In addition, Jonas might well love Jolenta for the things they have in
common: both are part artificial (her cosmetic implants, his prosthetics);
both are part robot (she is Talos's hypnotic slave); and both have
pseudonyms (that begin with "Jo-," hinting at twinning or alike-ness) they
received after their traumatic reinventions.

Jonas steps into the mirrors after speaking of being repaired.  When next
we see him, he is fully biological.  I have often speculated that in Yesod
his biological prosthetics were expanded into a full biological body into
which the Jonas-software was integrated . . . along with the biological
software that was present-yet-dormant in the prosthetics, now full-blown in
the reconstructed bio body.

(A somewhat cleaner version is that the Jonas-spirit was drawn from Yesod
by the Claw to ride the body of the annonymous dead soldier.)

In any event, two personalities in one body.

So I agree as to possible software weirdness in both Marble and Jonas being
a result of their use of external hardware replacements; that the weirdness
involves a degree of personality transfer ranging from "dilute" to
"potentially overpowering."  OTOH Jonas is not a chem of the Whorl.

Side note: re chem power systems, iirc the talus had a fusion power plant,
not a chemical power plant.

=mantis=

Gene Wolfe at WorldCon report coming soon!

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 03:22:03 +0000

> not a chemical power plant.

Also, iirc, Hammerstone makes some comment about using water or water
vapor as fuel - which I took to be short hand for the standard SF fusion
plant: water in; hydrogen, oxygen, and power out.

-Rostrum

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From: Filipe Silva <lafey at netcabo.pt>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 23:03:47 +0000

I've given some thought on this thread, and even knowing I'm certainly not
the most versed person in GW's works (since I only read The Book of the New
Sun) - I insist on presenting my two cents of contribution:
The prefix "Jo" found in Jonas and Jolenta could be understood or read as
"IO". Well I-O suggests automation or programmed reflex action - (like the
one we find when we press a letter on the keyboard and it appears on the
screen).

Any thoughts?

Humbly,
Filipe Silva

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 17:58:41 +0000

--- Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com> wrote:
...
> received after their traumatic reinventions.
...

I suspect the same things as you about why Jonas is attracted to Jolenta,
but I still want to know why you say "Jonas" and "Jolenta" are pseudonyms.

Jerry Friedman

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

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From: Filipe Silva <lafey at netcabo.pt>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 23:03:47 +0000

I've given some thought on this thread, and even knowing I'm=
 certainly not
the most versed person in GW's works (since I only read The Book=
 of the New
Sun) - I insist on presenting my two cents of contribution:
The prefix "Jo" found in Jonas and Jolenta could be understood or=
 read as
"IO". Well I-O suggests automation or programmed reflex action -=
 (like the
one we find when we press a letter on the keyboard and it appears=
 on the
screen).

Any thoughts?

Humbly,
Filipe Silva

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