Subject: (urth) Heavy Hyacinth

From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 15:59:34 +0000

At 06:37 PM 9/6/2002, Roy wrote:
> >Crush asks:
> >Is anyone aware of any textual evidence that non-military chems are not
> >light-weight? I know Sand was five-hundred weight, but that was useful for
> >his function.
>
>Yes. Silk was no weakling -- he threw Mamelta over his shoulder and ran with
>her, bad ankle and all, after Lemur was killed. Yet when Marble/Rose was
>telling him about Blood's birth, and it finally dawned on Silk that somehow
>Rose was speaking through Marble, he tested his theory:
>
>     "Watching carefully for her reaction, Silk said, 'I would have carried
>you, Maytera, if I could; but I knew you'd be too heavy for me to lift.'"
>(LS3, 4; p. 119 pb.)
>
>Also, earlier, following Marble's collapse after being possessed by Echidna,
>Silk gave her a hand to help her to her feet: "He heaved with all his
>strength, reawakening the half-healed wounds left by the beak of the
>white-headed one." (ibid. 117)

         Then doesn't that settle the question of whether Hyacinth was a 
chem? I guess I don't remember anybody's picking her up, but OTOH I don't 
recall anything about her being too heavy to heave!

Nutria

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 15:16:26 +0000

Nutria (Coypu) quoted:
"Watching carefully for her reaction, Silk said, 'I would have carried you,
Maytera, if I could; but I knew you'd be too heavy for me to lift.'"
(LS3, 4; p. 119 pb.)

That doesn't that settle the question of whether Hyacinth was a
chem? I guess I don't remember anybody's picking her up, but OTOH I don't
recall anything about her being too heavy to heave!

Crush whimpers:
I'm afraid it does. Silk picked her up two or three times and when he does,
the narrator notes her light weight. I don't' have the references but I did
(do) note them as clues after the last reference. By that time I knew that a
re-reading of the book was necessary to figure out what it was a clue to.

Those of the bio-Hyacinth side should mark this down as special victory. I
certainly would if the tables were turned. As I said, I consider her light
weight a clue because I don't believe Wolfe repeats a description without it
being a clue to something (and why offer a clue that Hy is human?).

Still the only reason I'm not on my back on the mat from this shot to the
melon listening dreamily to the referee's count is Andrew Reeve's recent
linkage of Jonas to this discussion. Jonas was notably light-weight. I
occurred to me then that Jonas' eventual conversion was just like - or
similar - to what (I argue) Hy did.

This makes me believe two things - one of which makes me ambivalently happy
and the other not at all happy. (1) I'll have to re-read The Book of the New
Sun to search for similarities between Hy and Jonas. (2) The nature of
Jonas' transformation has never been fully explained so the negative clues
of Hy's apparent humanity may never be resolved.

Is it inconceivable that a Hy and Jonas could be based on similar
engineering concepts? No, it could be that Wolfe sees the engineering
changes necessary to transform a chem to bio involves processes that have
the added (potential) benefit of lightening their weight (removal of a
hardened outer chasis, etc.) Or, it could be merely a literary connection,
the details of which Wolfe has left to the readers.

I reiterate that clues that Hyacinth is human, that she is female, does not
resolve clues that she is not. I realize that I am partly to blame for your
skepticism for posting a theory that I had not fully developed  (just "hey!
Look at all the suggestions that Hy is chem!"), but an alternate theory to
explain the clues and Silk's explanation to Horn would be useful to me.

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 16:44:40 +0000

>explain the clues and Silk's explanation to Horn would be useful to me.

         Setting aside whether all the mooted clues are really clues or 
might just be misinterpretations: We can always fall back on thematic 
rather than literal associations. If the name Hyacinth is also a pointer to 
Apollo, this relationship stands without her having to be a male. (Look, 
Silk is NOT going to be a homosexual, or engage in homosexual acts. Not in 
anything by Gene Wolfe.) Similarly, the fact that her name can also be that 
of a rock can point to the need for human beings to "reach down" and rescue 
"lesser" humans, in this case chems, without Hy's actually being a chem. We 
get the same theme in Short Sun, where the humans must live in such a way 
as to redeem the inhumi.
         Hy needs rescuing, clearly. She needs a REAL lover, and for Wolfe 
that's always God and His agents. To add that she's positioned like the 
chems only adds to the theme. But it does not mean she IS a chem.
         All the stuff about the intelligence and personality of the chems 
and how it might come to pass is interesting, but ultimately irrelevant 
thematically. Wolfe makes them persons. Period. They are like Cordwainer 
Smith's "underpeople." Wolfe and Smith write "theological SF." So, to get 
theological for a moment, if something can "speak," it has some 
relationship to the Word of God, and thus has some relationship to God and 
God's agents. True of Oreb and the kitty cat whose name I forget also. One 
way or another, both writers are playing with this notion.
         As the Theoanthropos has come down from the Increate to redeem 
humanity, so those redeemed by the Theoanthropos have a duty to go down and 
redeem the sub-human world. Wolfe is not an environmentalist, but he is a 
conservationist. I.e., he's not a neo-Hindu but a conscientious Christian 
in his view of the animal world. Human beings should the shepherds of 
creation, not the exploiters of it. This is a large concern in some of his 
shorter writings (especially those about wolves -- duh!). So, thematically 
we should not be surprised to detect various expressions of that concern in 
these larger books.
         I say you've advanced the discussion, but thematically, not as 
regards the "literal" "facts" of the narrative.
         FWIW.

Nutria

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 14:15:18 +0000

Actually, Smith's robots too.   And that is a linkage I had not really
considered.

The robots in Smith's stories may be precursors of the chems and of the many
"moral" mechanisms in Wolfe's stories (which reach as far back as the guard
robots in 5HC)

    hartshorn

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jordan" <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
> Smith's "underpeople."

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 16:58:02 +0000

Hartshorn wrote ... 

> The robots in Smith's stories may be precursors of the chems 
> and of the many "moral" mechanisms in Wolfe's stories (which 
> reach as far back as the guard robots in 5HC)

...okay, I'm blanking. The only robots I remember from
Smith are the Manshonyaggers, which I somehow can't really
think of as "moral." What am I forgetting ...

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 14:30:00 +0000

The robots in "The Dead Lady Of Clown Town".

Lady Panc Ashash, stuck in a robot body as a travel guide:

and the fighter robots sent to kill D'Joan

<quote>

This is what we all remember: the first authentic picture tape of the entire
incident:

The gold and black sergeant, his milky eyes staring at the Lady Panc Ashash

The Lady herself, in the pleasant old robot body, lifting a commanding
hand.

Elaine, distraught, half-turning as though she would grab the robot by his
right arm. Her head is moving so rapidly that her black hair swings as she
turns.

Charley-is-my-darling shouting, "I love, love, love!" at a small hand-
some man with mouse-colored hair. The man is gulping and saying nothing.

All this we know.

Then comes the unbelievable, which we now believe, the event for which
the stars and worlds were unprepared.

Mutiny.

Robot mutiny.

Disobedience in open daylight.

The words are hard to hear on the tape, but we can still make them out.

The recording device on the police ornithopter had gotten a square fix on
the face of the Lady Pane Ashash. Lip-readers can see the words plainly;
non-lip-readers can hear the words the third or fourth time the tape is run
through the eyebox.

Said the Lady, "Overridden."

Said the sergeant, "No, you're a robot."

"See for yourself. Read my brain. I am a robot. I am also a woman. You
cannot disobey people. I am people. I love you. Furthermore, you are
people. You think. We love each other. Try. Try to attack."

"I cannot," said the robot sergeant, his milky eyes seeming to spin
with excitement. "You love me? You mean I'm alive? I exist?"

"With love, you do," said the Lady Pane Ashash. "Look at her," said the
Lady, pointing to Joan, "because she has brought you love."

The robot looked and disobeyed the law. His squad looked with him.

He turned back to the Lady and bowed to her: "Then you know what we
must do, if we cannot obey you and cannot disobey the others."
"Do it,"she said sadly, "but know what you are doing. You are not really
escaping two human commands. You are making achoice. You. That makes
you men."

The sergeant turned to his squad ot man-sized robots: "You hear that?

She says we are men. I believe her. Do you believe her?"

"We do," they cried almost unanimously.

This is where the picture-tape ends. but we can imagine how the scene
was concluded. Elaine had stopped short, just behind the sergeant-robot.
The other robots had come up behind her. Charley-is-my-darling had
stopped talking. Joan was in the act oflifting her hands in blessing, her
warm
brown dog eyes gone wide with pity and understanding.
People wrote down the things that we cannot see . . . .

</quoite>

And many more

    hartshorn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <ddanehy at siebel.com>
To: <urth at urth.net>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 5:58 PM
Subject: RE: (urth) Heavy Hyacinth

> --Blattid

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From: tom <tom at bitterman.net>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 19:02:53 +0000

James Jordan writes:

> We can always fall back on thematic rather than literal
> associations. If the name Hyacinth is also a pointer to 
> Apollo, this relationship stands without her having to
> be a male.

Silk:Jesus::Hyacinth::Mary Magdelene?

I realize this is a bit obvious.  Still, it could fit into an
overall pattern where Wolfe sends Christ-types on "alternate
history" style adventures.  Here the variant is "What would have
happened had Christ become a rabbi and married Mary Magdelene?"

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 20:52:44 +0000

>happened had Christ become a rabbi and married Mary Magdelene?"

Oh, no doubt about it. I don't think it's so much the "what if" as it is 
that the penitent Magdelene has always been a symbol of the Church. She is 
the new Eve who encounters the New Gardener in the New Garden in John's gospel.

Nutria

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 21:18:24 +0000

Nutria declares
We can always fall back on thematic rather than literal associations. If the
name Hyacinth is also a pointer to Apollo, this relationship stands without
her having to be a male. (Look, Silk is NOT going to be a homosexual, or
engage in homosexual acts. Not in anything by Gene Wolfe.)

Crush responds:
Excellent point that Hy does not HAVE to be male to be thematically
connected to Hyacinthus. Of course, there are myriads of heterosexual love
affairs of Apollo's that Wolfe could have chosen. As for whether Wolfe would
*never* have a good-guy protagonist engage in a homosexual act - one might
axiomatically assert that he wouldn't have such a character wander from
woman to woman having casual sex (ala Severian). But I agree that *Silk* is
not homosexual. Incidentally, I do "rescue" a priest from closet
homosexuality by identifying Incus as female - and since closet
homosexuality is a malicious stereo-type of priests, I doubt Wolfe would
coddle it.

But the homosexual argument is moot in this case because a chem is not
human. Their "sexuality" is not mammalian; it is only modeled on human
roles. "Male" or "Female" roles for chems is no more applicable for humans
than male and female electrical connections. When Jonas becomes human he
choose to be a human male due to his love for Jolenta not due to a sexual
preference in a mammalian sense. The machismo aspect of Typhon's culture
(exemplified in the requirement of a physically hale male heir) caused all
the chem soldiers to needlessly be "male"- and this causes the plight of the
chems.

I reiterate that if Hy is a male chem, it does not make her relationship
with Silk homosexual. That is not the "taint" in their love-making.
Personally, I consider very impressive plotting that IMO Wolfe wove the
homosexual undertone of the Apollo/Hyacinthus story into the Silk's love
affair without making Silk homosexual (in ANY sense).

Nutria elaborates:
Similarly, the fact that her name can also be that
of a rock can point to the need for human beings to "reach down" and rescue
"lesser" humans, in this case chems, without Hy's actually being a chem. We
get the same theme in Short Sun, where the humans must live in such a way
as to redeem the inhumi.

Crush responds:
Excellent point again, that Hy can be "associated" with chems without having
to be chem - for example she is associated with Marble in the parallel
Crone-Nymph-Maiden triads (Marble-Rose-Mint = Hy-Chenille-Nettle). She could
play the crone as does Marble without being a chem like Marble.

Still, (perhaps this comes up in the Short Sun books) I didn't note the
theme where the chems need special rescuing. They aren't slave labor in
Viron, they have full legal rights as persons. I was actually surprised to
see so few of the chem army (or any chems except Marble) following Remora to
Blue.

I agree with you that chems are persons. The discussion about taluses with
the brown mechanic directly rubs out all significant distinction between the
psyches of chems and bios. As for Oreb and Tick, I'm not sure. Both of them
were purchased at different times for a sacrifice - one by Silk and the
other by Hy. I don't recall any move to free the animals in the market.
There is the loyalty of Oreb in his hostility to Tick (for being a
Trivigaunte spy who eventually betrays Silk's meeting with the
Ayuntamiento), but quite often the motives seem limited to the basics (food,
survival, etc.).

As for Silk's despondency being due to Hy's unfaithfulness, I have been
assuming that occurred *after* Silk's discussion with Horn - on the trip
back. The Mantis' additional explanation of the being the "lie" being due to
help from Kypris - that's a good rationalization but, gosh, I like mine
better -- it seems to pull Silk's entire explanation together.

On that point, I never imagined Hy was a chem until I read that conversation
on the airship - up until that time, I was merely perplexed by their
relationship. Sure I knew her name could be read as ambivalent - just as
Chenille's and Villus' can -- but what did it mean?. Like you I had lots of
theories about how she was connected thematically to chems - particularly
Marble. But after Silk's despondency, the chem theory seemed to answer all
my questions (while adding the problem of explaining the flags to the
contrary). It answered for me why their relationship, Hy's behavior, and
everyone's reaction to the relationship seemed "off". If it never seemed
that way to you, then I doubt you'll be compelled by anything I say on this
subject - I myself came to this explanation begrudgingly.

Nutria gushes ;-):
I say you've advanced the discussion, but thematically, not as regards the
"literal" "facts" of the narrative.

Crush responds:
Well I'll happily take what I can get. Thanks. :-D

--Crush

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