{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3457", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3457, "subject": "catamites and narrators", "messages": 16, "voices": 10, "first": "2002-09-13T04:28:32+00:00", "last": "2002-09-18T14:07:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2002-09-13T04:28:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a short note based off an old point made by James Jordan:\nhe claimed that Wolfe would never have a protagonist with homosexual \nencounters. However,there is some evidence that works against this both in \nFifth Head of Cerberus, in the relationship of Blood and Musk, and in the \nstrange commentary made by Severian about little Severian - (when he insists \nthat he didn't have anything to do with molesting the child, who would have \nthought of that before he brought it up? He plants the seed in the mind with \nhis occupatio - \"I didn't do it, so don't think I did\")\n\nBlood and Musk aren't evil becuase they are homosexual. Not even in Wolfe. \nTo have Severian defend himself creates a bit of suspicion, doesn't it? And \nAdditionally, Mr. Borski has already elucidated on the strange preoccupation \nwith circumsicions and various other repressed evidence of homosexual behavior \nin The Fifth Head of Cerberus, available at Cave Canem. For an author who \nshould be a bit opposed to it, there seems to be an awful lot of it in his \nbooks - and a lot of it that goes relatively uncommented upon, too. While \nWolfe may be clearly anti-feminist at times, I don't pick up this hostility to \nthe very idea of homosexuality. After all, he loves Proust's Remembrance of \nThings Past. Just my two cents on something that was said many days ago. \nSorry I'm so far behind.\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-09-13T14:46:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:28 PM 9/12/2002, you wrote:\nJust a short note based off an old point made by James Jordan:\nhe claimed that Wolfe would never have a protagonist with homosexual\nencounters. However,there is some evidence that works against this both in\nFifth Head of Cerberus, in the relationship of Blood and Musk, and in the\nstrange commentary made by Severian about little Severian - (when he insists\nthat he didn't have anything to do with molesting the child, who would have\nthought of that before he brought it up? He plants the seed in the mind with\nhis occupatio - \"I didn't do it, so don't think I did\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Sorry I was unclear. I meant a \"Christian moral exemplar\" like \nSilk would not be involved in homosexual acts, in Wolfe. Severian is a \n\"Christian symbol,\" but not much of a moral exemplar.\n\nNutty-Ria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-09-13T16:02:10+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just a short note based off an old point made by James Jordan:\nhe claimed that Wolfe would never have a protagonist with homosexual \nencounters. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While acknowledging Nutria's correction to \"Christian moral \nexemplar,\" I wish to observe that it wasn't really necessary. \nWolfe does not, in my opinion, involve any protagonist in such \nan encounter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However,there is some evidence that works against this both in \nFifth Head of Cerberus," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With all due respect, Number Five is not a \"protagonist.\" 5HC\nhas none; it has viewpoint characters, but we do not -- I think\nit's clear that we are not supposed to -- \"identify\" with them.\nThey are horrible, and we perceive them as horrible, and if any\nsingle thing is clear from the cryptic last line of the first\nnovella, it's that there is no salvation or hope for any of \nthem unless they are radically changed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in the relationship of Blood and Musk," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hardly protagonists. That would be Silk. Musk is one of \nseveral clearly and unambiguously evil figures in tBotLS;\neven his \"love\" is deeply warped by his evil. Blood is\na more ambiguous figure, and at times there seems to be\nhope for him, but in the end he dies in, and because of, \nhis own corruption." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and in the strange commentary made by Severian about little\nSeverian - (when he insists that he didn't have anything to\ndo with molesting the child, who would have thought of that\nbefore he brought it up? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anyone familiar with the culture of the Commonwealth, I\nthink. As Nutria points out, Severian is not a \"Christian\nmoral exemplar,\" but he does seem to be very heterosexual\n... unless you want to go for the \"don-Juanism as a cover\nfor homosexuality\" blag. \n\nOn the other hand, Severian commits almost every other\nsexual sin available to him in the circumstances of his\ntravels -- incest, fornication, a kind of adultery, \nrape ... though not, as near as I can recall, bestiality\n-- so the lack of homosex actually kind of stands out as\na blatant absence, donnit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Blood and Musk aren't evil becuase they are homosexual. Not \neven in Wolfe. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, though it might be argued that they're homosexual because\nthey're evil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While Wolfe may be clearly anti-feminist at times, I don't \npick up this hostility to the very idea of homosexuality. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think one point is that feminism is a political postion, \nwhile \"homosexuality\" (i.e., actual homosexual _acts_) are\na sin. The one is something that can be vigorously opposed;\nthe other is ... well, the orthodox Christian and Catholic \nposition is that we are all sinners. I'm not to concentrate\non your sin, but my own. And sins like homosexuality are, \nin the end, appetitive sins and so not as extreme as sins\nlike blasphemy and violence. (Well, except in the somewhat \nextreme moral theology that regards all sexual sins as \nblasphemy against the Image of God.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-09-16T22:24:51+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However,there is some evidence that works against this both in \nFifth Head of Cerberus," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With all due respect, Number Five is not a \"protagonist.\" 5HC\nhas none; it has viewpoint characters, but we do not -- I think\nit's clear that we are not supposed to -- \"identify\" with them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I certainly identified with Number 5, despite his great differences\nfrom me, and I think the reader is supposed to. I don't have any\nproblem with calling him the protagonist of the story. Not the\nhero." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They are horrible, and we perceive them as horrible, and if any\nsingle thing is clear from the cryptic last line of the first\nnovella, it's that there is no salvation or hope for any of \nthem unless they are radically changed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now I agree with that.\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyone familiar with the culture of the Commonwealth, I\nthink. As Nutria points out, Severian is not a \"Christian\nmoral exemplar,\" but he does seem to be very heterosexual\n... unless you want to go for the \"don-Juanism as a cover\nfor homosexuality\" blag. \n\nOn the other hand, Severian commits almost every other\nsexual sin available to him in the circumstances of his\ntravels -- incest, fornication, a kind of adultery, \nrape ... though not, as near as I can recall, bestiality\n-- so the lack of homosex actually kind of stands out as\na blatant absence, donnit?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Simply because all Severian's sexual acts require the same\npreference--grown women--whereas homosexuality, pedophilia,\nbestiality, latex, etc. require other preferences? Regardless\nof which ones you consider sinful and which you don't.\n\nIncidentally, if by incest and \"a kind of adultery\" you mean\nhis relationship with Dorcas, I really think those are Not\nHis Fault.\n...\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-09-17T01:01:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini writing originally:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For an author who\nshould be a bit opposed to it, there seems to be an awful lot of it in his\nbooks - and a lot of it that goes relatively uncommented upon, too. While\nWolfe may be clearly anti-feminist at times, I don't pick up this\nhostility to\nthe very idea of homosexuality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then Blattid adding:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While acknowledging Nutria's correction to \"Christian moral\nexemplar,\" I wish to observe that it wasn't really necessary.\nWolfe does not, in my opinion, involve any protagonist in such\nan encounter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Among my many works-in-progress (most of which will probably never see light\nof day), but promised to another venue, is an essay entitled \"The Stained\nAltar Boy: The Pederast as Villain in the Works of Gene Wolfe.\" In it I hope\nto show that while on the whole Wolfe has remained relatively\nnon-judgemental about homosexuality, he has frequently cast pederasts as\nvillains, both major and minor, in a number of his works; whether it's the\noriginal John Marsch of Earth; the nameless physician in Vodalus's camp who\nsleeps with the youth Mamas; or Pasicrates, who may see in Latro the ideal\nvictim (and whose continued sexual exploitation may be the source of Latro's\ndeep depression at the end of ARETE, it being sensed but not remembered by\nour hero); moreover, how (with the exception of the middle example above)\nthe pederastic acts are all off-stage and never directly mentioned, but must\nbe deduced (Wolfe being far too subtle a writer to offer us an easily\nrecognized child molester as villain).\n\nBlattid again" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, Severian commits almost every other\nsexual sin available to him in the circumstances of his\ntravels -- incest, fornication, a kind of adultery,\nrape ... though not, as near as I can recall, bestiality" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But he does bed larval Apheta, who is clearly outside our species, and\nimmature to boot. To some--and especially those factions on Urth who see all\naliens as cacogens (\"those filthy born\"), this may constitute bestiality.\n\nRobert Borski" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-09-17T01:32:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:01 PM 9/16/2002, Borski wrote:\nAmong my many works-in-progress (most of which will probably never see light\nof day), but promised to another venue, is an essay entitled \"The Stained\nAltar Boy: The Pederast as Villain in the Works of Gene Wolfe.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good points, and there are other examples also. But I question your title, \nsince Wolfe grew up outside the Roman Catholic church. I doubt he had much \nif any knowledge of this problem growing up -- though I cannot recall if \nLouisiana was where he spent time as a youth, so he might have encountered \nit by hearsay. At any rate, I would question whether he had altar boy \nmolestation in mind as he wrote these works -- as your title would imply to \nmost readers of your essay.\n\nFWIW\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-09-17T03:35:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: \"Jerry Friedman\"\nreponding to Blatttid:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the other hand, Severian commits almost every other\nsexual sin available to him in the circumstances of his\ntravels -- incest, fornication, a kind of adultery,\nrape ... though not, as near as I can recall, bestiality\n-- so the lack of homosex actually kind of stands out as\na blatant absence, donnit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Simply because all Severian's sexual acts require the same\npreference--grown women--whereas homosexuality, pedophilia,\nbestiality, latex, etc. require other preferences? Regardless\nof which ones you consider sinful and which you don't.\n\nIncidentally, if by incest and \"a kind of adultery\" you mean\nhis relationship with Dorcas, I really think those are Not\nHis Fault." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. It is certainly an original situation, and one that could only\noccur in SF. Both were unaware of it. Wolfe surely meant it to be\nprovocative: more power--and I think he intended intellectual power to\nconsider it--to him. It is the sort of thing SF seems to me to be meant to\nexplore. If \"a kind of adultery\" refers to Cyriaca, well, I can't get too\nexercised about that, either. Nor rape if that refers to Jolenta, good\ngrief! And fornication--since when do we start bleating about that? Yikes.\nPederasty would be entirely different and entirely more reprehensible than\nany of the above as they are presented. Baldanders does seem to be guilty,\nbut he also commits a lot of crimes and tortures. Which, it seems to me,\nwould indicate that pederasty is Not Permissible to a Hero, i.e. sinful." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Blood and Musk aren't evil because they are homosexual. Not\neven in Wolfe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, though it might be argued that they're homosexual because they're\nevil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While Wolfe may be clearly anti-feminist at times, I don't\npick up this hostility to the very idea of homosexuality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nor I, though it's a genre trope that occasionally crops up. So no, I don't\nthink a lack of homosex for Sev stands out at all.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-09-17T10:19:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 13/09/2002 05:28:32 maa32 wrote:\nAdditionally, Mr. Borski has already elucidated on the strange\npreoccupation\nwith circumsicions and various other repressed evidence of homosexual\nbehavior" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\n\n\n\nWhat in hell connects circumcision with repressed evidence of homosexual\nbehaviour?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just a short note based off an old point made by James Jordan:\nhe claimed that Wolfe would never have a protagonist with homosexual\nencounters. However,there is some evidence that works against this both\nin\nFifth Head of Cerberus, in the relationship of Blood and Musk, and in the\nstrange commentary made by Severian about little Severian - (when he\ninsists\nthat he didn't have anything to do with molesting the child, who would\nhave\nthought of that before he brought it up? He plants the seed in the mind\nwith\nhis occupatio - \"I didn't do it, so don't think I did\")\n\nBlood and Musk aren't evil becuase they are homosexual. Not even in\nWolfe.\nTo have Severian defend himself creates a bit of suspicion, doesn't it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And\n......" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in The Fifth Head of Cerberus, available at Cave Canem. For an author\nwho\nshould be a bit opposed to it, there seems to be an awful lot of it in\nhis\nbooks - and a lot of it that goes relatively uncommented upon, too. While\nWolfe may be clearly anti-feminist at times, I don't pick up this\nhostility to\nthe very idea of homosexuality. After all, he loves Proust's Remembrance\nof\nThings Past. Just my two cents on something that was said many days ago.\nSorry I'm so far behind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not hostile. The character's little commentary in the area of sexuality\nseems to be generally neutral.\n\nHowever examples of such behaviour, such as Severian's glimpse of what he\nspeculates might be Baldanders' catamite, are invariably associated with\nthe \"other side\" (to be Manichean about it).\n\nSeverian doesn't say that he was tempted to paederasty with little Sev,\nrather that others would assume that he was. Perhaps it is more a\ncommentary on the society of the Commonwealth than on Severian (then and\nlater as author) that the posibility existed and any assumption worth\npre-emtive denial.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-09-17T15:36:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Jordan wrote:\nAt 08:01 PM 9/16/2002, Borski wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Among my many works-in-progress (most of which will probably never see\nlight\nof day), but promised to another venue, is an essay entitled \"The\nStained\nAltar Boy: The Pederast as Villain in the Works of Gene Wolfe.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good points, and there are other examples also. But I question your\ntitle, \nsince Wolfe grew up outside the Roman Catholic church. I doubt he had\nmuch \nif any knowledge of this problem growing up -- though I cannot recall if\n\nLouisiana was where he spent time as a youth, so he might have\nencountered \nit by hearsay. At any rate, I would question whether he had altar boy \nmolestation in mind as he wrote these works -- as your title would imply\nto \nmost readers of your essay." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this problem has featured in stereotypes of the Catholic\nchurch for centuries (see _Candide_), probably for over a millennium,\nbelieved by many among both the knowledgeable and the ignorant. Want\nto read a joke? I didn't think so." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-09-17T15:50:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Robert Borski wrote:\nMarc Aramini writing originally:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Among my many works-in-progress (most of which will probably never see\nlight\nof day), but promised to another venue, is an essay entitled \"The\nStained\nAltar Boy: The Pederast as Villain in the Works of Gene Wolfe.\" In it I\nhope\nto show that while on the whole Wolfe has remained relatively\nnon-judgemental about homosexuality, he has frequently cast pederasts as\nvillains, both major and minor, in a number of his works; whether it's\nthe\noriginal John Marsch of Earth; the nameless physician in Vodalus's camp\nwho\nsleeps with the youth Mamas; or Pasicrates, who may see in Latro the\nideal\nvictim (and whose continued sexual exploitation may be the source of\nLatro's\ndeep depression at the end of ARETE, it being sensed but not remembered\nby\nour hero); moreover, how (with the exception of the middle example\nabove)\nthe pederastic acts are all off-stage and never directly mentioned, but\nmust\nbe deduced (Wolfe being far too subtle a writer to offer us an easily\nrecognized child molester as villain)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An interesting topic. I just want to mention that I don't think\nit's accurate to call Pasicrates' exploitation of Latro pederasty,\nsince Latro is a grown man.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-09-17T16:09:46+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Robert Borski wrote:\n...Pasicrates, who may see in Latro the ideal victim (and whose continued\nsexual exploitation may be the source of Latro's deep depression at the end\nof ARETE, it being sensed but not remembered by our hero); moreover, how\n(with the exception of the middle example above) the pederastic acts are all\noff-stage and never directly mentioned, but must be deduced (Wolfe being far\ntoo subtle a writer to offer us an easily recognized child molester as\nvillain).\n\nJerry Friedman then responded:\nAn interesting topic. I just want to mention that I don't think it's\naccurate to call Pasicrates' exploitation of Latro pederasty,\nsince Latro is a grown man.\n\nCrush interjects:\nI was pretty sure that Pasicrates never had his way with Latro, although he\nwanted to. He tried to \"force his hand\" and lost it. I don't think see any\nhint that he was successful after Latro's return from the North. Are there\nsome things specifically you noted? Latro's depression was surely due to the\ndeath of his lover, the Amazon (whose name I can't remember right now)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-09-17T17:09:44+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:\n--- Robert Borski wrote:\n...Pasicrates, who may see in Latro the ideal victim (and whose\ncontinued\nsexual exploitation may be the source of Latro's deep depression at the\nend\nof ARETE, it being sensed but not remembered by our hero); moreover, how\n(with the exception of the middle example above) the pederastic acts are\nall\noff-stage and never directly mentioned, but must be deduced (Wolfe being\nfar\ntoo subtle a writer to offer us an easily recognized child molester as\nvillain).\n\nJerry Friedman then responded:\nAn interesting topic. I just want to mention that I don't think it's\naccurate to call Pasicrates' exploitation of Latro pederasty,\nsince Latro is a grown man.\n\nCrush interjects:\nI was pretty sure that Pasicrates never had his way with Latro, although\nhe\nwanted to. He tried to \"force his hand\" and lost it. I don't think see\nany\nhint that he was successful after Latro's return from the North. Are\nthere\nsome things specifically you noted? Latro's depression was surely due to\nthe\ndeath of his lover, the Amazon (whose name I can't remember right now)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't mind me. I'd forgotten that incident and was believing Robert.\nI'll leave this one to people who have the book.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-09-17T21:07:26+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Things are arriving at my machine in weird, random order." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Incidentally, if by incest and \"a kind of adultery\" you mean\nhis relationship with Dorcas, I really think those are Not\nHis Fault." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As do I, regarding incest. And so what? Consider Oedipus. Incest \nappears to be so vile that even unknown, it pollutes the world. \nYet this is that world's savior ... go figure.\n\nAs for \"a kind of adultery,\" what I basically meant was infidelity\nin his going after Jolenta right after his reunion with Dorcas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is certainly an original situation, and one that could only\noccur in SF. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True; and only because Dorcas is not (or does not appear to be)\na timewalker is Severian prevented from singing the old convention\nfavorite that ends \"... I am my own grampaaaaw!\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If \"a kind of adultery\" refers to Cyriaca, well, I \ncan't get too exercised about that, either. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good heavens, I'd forgotten that. Skip \"a kind of.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nor rape if that refers to Jolenta, good grief! And\nfornication--since when do we start bleating about \nthat? Yikes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since we are speaking of traditional Catholic sexual morality,\nthat's since when. Not late-twentieth/early-twenty-first-\ncentury American secular humanist morality. In which case the\ncontent of sin is not only intentional but formal; and my point \nis not whether Severian is \"guilty\" (the issue of intention) \nof any or all of these things: it is that he formally does \ncommit them, but somehow homosexuality seems to be left out of \nthe mix." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "mweber at library.berkeley.edu" }, "date": "2002-09-17T21:19:19+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:07 PM 9/17/02 -0700, you wrote:\nAs do I, regarding incest. And so what? Consider Oedipus. Incest\nappears to be so vile that even unknown, it pollutes the world.\nYet this is that world's savior ... go figure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but the ethical/religious world of Sophocles isn't the same as that of \nWolfe. In Sophocles (as in the Old Testament, come to think of it: cf. \nUzziah and the Ark of the Covenant) it doesn't matter than Oedipus was an \nunknowing wrongdoer; he was guilty of patricide and incest, even if the \nformer was self-defense and he had no idea he was committing the \nlatter. Wolfe's sensibility is Christian: intent is more important than \nresult, or at least as important.\n\n\nMatthew Weber\nCuratorial Assistant\nMusic Library\nUniversity of California, Berkeley\n\nMy father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with \nscorpions.\n The Holy Bible (The Old Testament): _The First Book of the \nKings_, chapter 12, verse 11" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-09-17T21:39:33+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Arami suggested:\n...or Pasicrates, who may see in Latro the ideal victim (and whose continued\nsexual exploitation may be the source of Latro's deep depression at the end\nof ARETE, it being sensed but not remembered by our hero)\nCrush interjected:\nI was pretty sure that Pasicrates never had his way with Latro, although he\nwanted to. He tried to \"force his hand\" and lost it. I don't think see any\nhint that he was successful after Latro's return from the North. Are there\nsome things specifically you noted? Latro's depression was surely due to the\ndeath of his lover, the Amazon (whose name I can't remember right now).\n\nJerry Friedman defered:\nDon't mind me. I'd forgotten that incident and was believing Robert.\nI'll leave this one to people who have the book.\n\nCrush responds:\nActually I was directing my question to all readers and participants of this\nthread. Important details in Wolfe's works frequently walk right under my\nnose (which is no surprise to some)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2002-09-18T14:07:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) catamites and narrators", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a message dated 9/17/2002, matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk writes" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 13/09/2002 05:28:32 maa32 wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Additionally, Mr. Borski has \nalready elucidated on the strange preoccupation with circumsicions \nand various other repressed evidence of homosexual behavior. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What in hell connects circumcision with repressed evidence of \nhomosexual behaviour?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're parsing this incorrectly. It's not circumcision that's connected \nwith homosexual behavior, it's strange preoccupation with it. \n\nIn Fifth Head of Cerberus, the teenage Victor serves as a guide for \nJohn Marsch in an expedition to the backcountry to search for abos.\nJohn Marsch writes in his journal about how he watches Victor bathing,\nand notes that he is umcircumcised. He also writes in the journal\nthat he suspects that Victor is sneaking off to have sex with an abo \ngirl, and that if he catches them, he will probably kill them both. \n\nAltogether, this is generally taken as evidence for Marsch's homosexuality.\n(Although arguably, he might just be mad at Victor for withholding\nevidence that the abos really exist.) This was discussed in much more \ndetail a while back in a thread called \"uncut dogs.\"\n\nSPOILERS AHEAD\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nIt just occurred to me that this is why Victor killed Marsch. This murder \nis so obviously against Victor's self-interest -- Marsch serving as Victor's \nonly conceivable ticket to a college education and a better life -- that\nI had assumed that he hadn't committed it, but that Marsch had been \nkilled by a ghoul-bear (the near escape from which Victor later writes \nabout in Marsch's diary). However, self-defense against rape is not only\na plausible reason for murder, but beautifully parallels Number 5's murder \nof Maitre. Now, I'm going to have to reread 5HC to look for more\nevidence of this rape (which is probably very subtle, if it's there at all,\nsince both Victor and Marsch have good reason not to mention it).\n\n- Stone Ox" } ] } ] }