{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3458", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3458, "subject": "PEACE: egg and intrigue", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-09-14T17:10:04+00:00", "last": "2002-09-21T01:54:21+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2002-09-14T17:10:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: egg and intrigue", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The recent charge that discussions on this list have become \"loony\" \nmade me start thinking, and I think part of the problem is that we are\nconcentrating too much on the hard aspects of the books. In my most \nrecent rereading of Peace, I noticed some really nice aspects I hadn't \nnoticed before, but I haven't mentioned them here because they seemed \nmore obvious than most of the discussions here. But on looking through \nthe archives, it's not clear that anybody else has noticed them, either. \n\nIn http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0030/0040.shtml, Adam Stephanides says,\non the relation of the embedded princess story to Olivia's life," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... in the Chinese egg affair, Olivia tries to maneuver Macafee into using \nhis \ntrading prowess for her benefit, like the merchant; but her plan backfires\nsomehow, and she ends up buying the egg herself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's the \"somehow\" I will concentrate on in this post. I had always had the\ngeneral impression that Olivia didn't marry Macafee because he ended up \nwith the egg, and had thought this seemed quite petty of her. Now, I think\nI understand better what happened.\n\nBoth Olivia and Macafee are serious collectors (unexpected connection: as, \nlater, is Stewart Blaine) who covet the Lorns' Chinese egg. Mr. Macafee\nconveys to Olivia, via Eleanor Bold, the message that he will buy the egg and\ngive it to Olivia for her birthday. Not to be outdone, Olvia sends back the\nmessage that she wants to buy the egg and give it to Jimmy Macafee for his\nbirthday. However, her plan actually is to bid the price up, but still let\nMr. Macafee buy it for her (possibly as a test of his devotion, as in a fairy \ntale). \n\nWhen they go to look at the egg, Aunt Olivia leaves her checkbook at home\nand brings cash; this way she ensures that Mr. Macafee (who, she knows, will\nbring his checkbook) will be able to outbid her. She knows the price of the \negg\nalready -- the cost of a good sewing machine -- and she brings enough to bid \nthe price substantially above that.\n\nWhen Em Lorn meets Olivia Weer and James Macafee, however, she likes\nOlivia a lot more, so she figures out a way of bending the rules against\ncommerce on Sundays so as to allow Olivia but not Jimmy to buy the egg. \nMrs. Lorn says she can accept cash--left in a jar--but not a check, because \nwriting her name on the check on Sunday would be the sin. (This is really a \nfine distinction; I am sure that Mrs. Lorn believes it is a minor sin either \nway, \nand came up this rule to ensure that Olivia gets the egg). Later, Olivia \nrealizes that Mr. Macafee could have evaded this restriction by making the \ncheck out to cash.\n \nTwo questions come to mind: Did Mr. Macafee realize this at the time, but\nfail to mention it because he wanted Olivia to give him the egg for his \nbirthday?\nDoes Olivia believe he realized it at the time? If she does, this is a \nsomewhat\nbetter reason for refusing to marry him, and further, this reason corresponds\nwell to that given in the embedded tale of the princess: that \"the heavy \npurse \nhanging from his belt bruised her each time they embraced.\"\n\nWhile we're on the subject of the egg, in my last rereading I also found the \nanswer to a question asked earlier by Roy Lackey:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_Why was there not a single mention or hint of the famous Egg at the \nbirthday party_? It should have been the center of attention, but doesn't \nseem to have been there at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt's there, but (as befits an Easter egg) well hidden. At the opening of the \nchapter containing the stories told at Macafee's birthday party, Dr. Van Ness \nshows Weer one of the TAT cards:\n \"Look at this card. Will you describe it for me?\"\n \"There's a woman--at least I think it's a woman, it might be a boy, an\nadolescent. She's handing that other one something.\"\n \"Very good. Now you are to make up a little story for me--a story\nfor which this picture is to be one of the illustrations.\"\n\nImmediately after this follows the story of the Chinese pillow, so at first it\nmight appear that this is the story the card illustrates, but I think a better\nreading is that the card illustrates Olivia handing over the egg at Macafee's\nbirthday party.\n\n-- stone ox" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-09-14T17:47:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: egg and intrigue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \nTo: \nSent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 6:10 PM\nSubject: (urth) PEACE: egg and intrigue\nThe recent charge that discussions on this list have become \"loony\"\nmade me start thinking, and I think part of the problem is that we are\nconcentrating too much on the hard aspects of the books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree: but may remark that it was only one thread I thought \"loony\".\nThanks for this elucidaton of PEACE, a work I must re-read and pay some real\nattention to.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-09-20T17:09:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: egg and intrigue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A very interesting post, which motivated me to look at those passages again\nmyself. A couple of comments:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 9/14/02 5:10 PM, StoneOx17 at aol.com at StoneOx17 at aol.com wrote:\nWhen they go to look at the egg, Aunt Olivia leaves her checkbook at home\nand brings cash; this way she ensures that Mr. Macafee (who, she knows, will\nbring his checkbook) will be able to outbid her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do we know that Olivia has a checkbook? I don't know whether a woman living\nalone in a small town in 1929 would have automatically had a checking\naccount." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She knows the price of the\negg\nalready -- the cost of a good sewing machine -- and she brings enough to bid\nthe price substantially above that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a minor point, but the sewing machine is just one of the things Em Lorn\nplans to buy with the money from the egg (p. 78, Harper & Row hc)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Two questions come to mind: Did Mr. Macafee realize this at the time, but\nfail to mention it because he wanted Olivia to give him the egg for his\nbirthday?\nDoes Olivia believe he realized it at the time? If she does, this is a\nsomewhat\nbetter reason for refusing to marry him, and further, this reason corresponds\nwell to that given in the embedded tale of the princess: that \"the heavy\npurse \nhanging from his belt bruised her each time they embraced.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But she'd been trying to outmaneuver him. If she refused to marry him just\nbecause he'd outsmarted her, it still seems pretty petty.\n\nNow my own thoughts upon rereading the egg and Macafee passages:\n\n1) Olivia claims that Macafee's true intent was to prevent her from bidding\nagainst him, by letting her think he planned to give it to her, and then to\nactually give her something else more expensive (but less desirable). But\nwe have no evidence for this aside from Olivia's assertion. And surely it\nwould be look rather awkward for Macafee to withhold the egg after he'd\npublicly stated he planned to give it to her, especially since it seems to\nbe public knowledge that she covets the egg.\n\nI suspect that Olivia herself doesn't believe this. Her true motive for\nbidding up the price is that, as an independent woman, she dislikes feeling\ndependent on Macafee. The Nankeen Nook, she can tell herself, benefits\nMacafee as well as herself; but to be given the egg is too much. At the\nsame time, she doesn't want to pass up the egg. By arranging things so\nthat, instead of being given the egg freely, she has \"forced\" Macafee to\ngive it to her (at least in her own eyes), she can have her cake and eat it\ntoo.\n\n2) Is there any indication that Olivia ever intended to marry Macafee in the\nfirst place, any more than she did the other two suitors? I get the\nimpression that she's happy to keep her suitors on a string indefinitely.\nPerhaps she won't marry Macafee because she feels that married to such a\nsubstantial, almost patriarchal, citizen, she would be too dependent. This\nwould accord even better with the princess's reason for not marrying the\nmerchant in the embedded tale.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2002-09-21T01:54:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: egg and intrigue", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam Stephanides writes, in response to my posting on the egg hunt:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "StoneOx17 at aol.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When they go to look at the egg, Aunt Olivia leaves her checkbook at home\nand brings cash; this way she ensures that Mr. Macafee (who, she knows, \nwill bring his checkbook) will be able to outbid her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do we know that Olivia has a checkbook? I don't know whether a woman living\nalone in a small town in 1929 would have automatically had a checking\naccount." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even though a substantial part of her income comes from her brother, Olivia's \na fairly well-off woman with expensive tastes (Pekinese, scientific \njournals, etc.), so she's much more likely to have a checkbook than a typical \nwoman from that era. However, the best argument for her having a checkbook \nis the irony that her act of leaving the checkbook at home so as to have a \ngood excuse to stop bidding is the very act that lets Em Lorn find a way to \ngive the egg to the lower bidder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She knows the price of the egg\nalready -- the cost of a good sewing machine -- and she brings enough \nto bid the price substantially above that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a minor point, but the sewing machine is just one of the things Em Lorn\nplans to buy with the money from the egg (p. 78, Harper & Row hc)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought I'd reread the relevant parts just before my posting, but clearly \nnot carefully enough. I think the sewing machine still manages to set\na ballpark price for the egg, without Eleanor Bold ever having to talk\nabout anything so distasteful as money." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Two questions come to mind: Did Mr. Macafee realize this at the time, but\nfail to mention it because he wanted Olivia to give him the egg for his\nbirthday?\nDoes Olivia believe he realized it at the time? If she does, this is a\nsomewhat better reason for refusing to marry him, and further, this \nreason corresponds well to that given in the embedded tale of the \nprincess: that \"the heavy purse hanging from his belt bruised her each \ntime they embraced.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But she'd been trying to outmaneuver him. If she refused to marry him just\nbecause he'd outsmarted her, it still seems pretty petty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's still petty, but now it's a reason I can believe in, as opposed to the \nprevious pettiness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now my own thoughts upon rereading the egg and Macafee passages:\n1) ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here I've deleted some very good points Adam makes. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Is there any indication that Olivia ever intended to marry Macafee in the\nfirst place, any more than she did the other two suitors? I get the\nimpression that she's happy to keep her suitors on a string indefinitely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I somehow got the impression that Olivia was leaning toward Macafee from\nthe adult Weer's conversation from Stewart Blaine, but upon rereading this\npassage, I think I may have been reading too much into it. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps she won't marry Macafee because she feels that married to such a\nsubstantial, almost patriarchal, citizen, she would be too dependent. This\nwould accord even better with the princess's reason for not marrying the\nmerchant in the embedded tale." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was interpreting the princess's reason as saying Olivia thought Macafee \ncared too much about money and material goods, like the egg, and too\nlittle about Olivia. This is indeed quite hypocritical on Olivia's part, but \nI \nthink not out of character.\n\nFinally, I'd like to comment that even if Olivia did realize at the time that \nMacafee could have made his check out to cash, and avoided Em Lorn's\nrestrictions, I don't see how she could have mentioned this to Macafee.\nShe's been trapped by her own machinations.\n\n-- Stone Ox" } ] } ] }