{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3460", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3460, "subject": "The cenoby files", "messages": 12, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-09-23T21:57:40+00:00", "last": "2002-09-26T23:14:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-09-23T21:57:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The cenoby files", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Having just completed a slow rereading of the LS series, there are some\npuzzles I can't seem to work out. Those bored with nitty-gritty plot details\nmay want to skip it.\n\nThis puzzle is bound up, primarily, in two scenes and two associated\nobjects. The scenes are Marble's two trips to the attic of the cenoby in\nCALDE. She went up there to get to the roof to get a better view of the\nTrivigaunti airship. One of the two objects is a painting on the wall of the\nsecond-floor hallway of the cenoby, the other is a trunk in the attic. It's\nhard, sometimes, to sort out the pronouns used by Marble after she\nassimilated some of Rose's personality, to know which of herselves is meant;\nsometimes she switches viewpoints in the same sentence. But both trips to\nthe attic came after Rose's death. In order to make as much sense of this as\nI can, I must first establish some background for both Marble and Rose.\n\nMarble's earliest memory is of the first time she booted up in a huge room\non Urth. She was naked and was given a maids' costume to wear. She was, in\nother words, literally created to be a maid. (This is in chapter seven of\nEXODUS, the one about the talus factory. There are some clear parallels\nregarding taluses and chems there with ideas Wolfe put forth in his Tolkien\nessay regarding individuals and their place in society, ideas that Adam\nStephanides, iirc, commented on earlier this year, but I don't want to get\ninto that here. But I will note that when Marble got \"new clothes\", as she\nputs it, after becoming a sibyl, she had to put aside the clothes she was\ncreated to wear. With her new clothes she assumed a new place in society her\ncreators had not intended for her. Make of that what you will.) Marble had\nbeen the sibyls' maid when \"the first bios moved into the city\". (231) She\nwas just a maid for two and a half centuries.\n\nMarble told Silk that the oldest of the children she had first taught \"must\nbe sixty, or about that. I was--didn't teach until then.\" (LS1, 3) She was\nwhat? What she was going to say, I believe, was that she had been just the\nsibyls' maid up until then. This is confirmed in LS4, when she told Quetzal\nwhy she wanted to be released from her vow. (231-32) She then taught only\nthe youngest of the children, teaching them \"their sums and letters\". So,\nMarble had been a sibyl for only fifty-odd years.\n\nNow to Rose. She was 40 when she gave birth to Blood. Blood told Silk that\nhe was 49, but Silk intuited that he was lying, that he was at least five\nyears older--call it 54. That makes Rose about 94 when she died. Rose is a\nbitter, old bitch whom no one likes. She has nothing but contempt for\nMarble, as shown by her persistent refusal to use the customary honorific\n\"Maytera\" when speaking to others of her: \"Marble's still fooling around in\nthe kitchen. The littlest thing takes that girl forever.\" (LS1, 8) Note the\n\"that girl\", even though Marble is more than three times as old as Rose. To\nRose, Marble is \"that girl\" because Rose remembers her when she still had\nher girlish face and synthetic-bio covering.\n\nWhen Marble first went up to the attic, she searched her memory for how long\nit had been since she had last done that; 184 years before. (LS3, 5) She had\nbeen a \"graceful girl\" then; in fact, she had been a \"graceful girl\" for 120\nyears by then, because the _Whorl_ has been gone from Urth for 300 years.\n\nAbout that painting. On her second trip to the attic (LS3, 8) she was\nthinking about the painting on the wall of the second-floor hallway of the\ncenoby, the one of Molpe blessing an old woman and some doves. She says she\nhad lied when she told a postulant once that she had posed as Molpe, \"almost\nthe only lie she had ever told\". Yet she seems to have a memory of having\nposed for that painting. At any rate, she goes on to think she \"could not\nhave been a sibyl then, only the sibyls' maid\". In other words, she was\nstill just the maid at the time that picture was painted.\n\nMarble did not pose for it; that was a lie, as she confessed. She told the\nlie because she wanted, as an old woman will who was once beautiful, the\nyoung postulant to understand that she had once been young, too; that\nsomewhere inside she was still \"that girl\". Wolfe is particularly tricky\nabout that painting, mingling memories and misdirecting the reader. The\nmemory of having posed comes from Rose, evidently, despite the comments\nabout chems making better models. Here is the relevant passage:\n\n \"She [Marble] could not have been a sibyl then, only the sibyls' maid;\nbut the artist had been a relative of the Senior Sibyl's, who had agreed to\nlet her [Rose] pose. Chems could hold a pose much longer than bios. All\nartists, he had said, used chems when they could, although he had used his\nmother for the old woman because chems never looked old. . . .\n \"She smiled at that, tilting her head far back and to the right. The\nhinges, then the other track.\n \"He had given them the picture when it was done.\"\n\nThat picture, then, was painted more than fifty years ago, when Marble still\nhad her girlish looks and Rose was a relatively young, attractive, slender\nsibyl. Marble's lie eventually became the truth. A single word in the\nfollowing quote is all that gives me any reason to doubt this explication of\nthat picture: \"A chubby postulant whose name she could not recall had\nadmired it; and she, thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble, flattered, had said\nthat she had posed for Molpe.\" How and why should Marble have felt\n\"flattered\" if it was a lie? If it wasn't a lie, why would she repeatedly\nconfess it to Betel at each shriving, such false confessions themselves\nconstituting more lies? Remember, that lie was told many years before Marble\nacquired some of Rose's parts and personality.\n\nFifty-odd years ago, Rose was close to forty. Both Marble and Rose have\nindependent memories of Maytera Betel when each was a sibyl; Marble of\nconfessing over and over to her for the lie about posing for the painting,\nRose of Betel's help with her pregnancy. When Marble told that lie she was,\nby her own account, \"thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble\". So, since Rose\nremembers Marble when she was \"that girl\", either Marble suffered a rather\nprecipitous breakdown of her girlish facade, or she was made to give it up,\npossibly as a condition of teaching. It wouldn't do to have a teacher who\nlooked like a girl herself.\n\nSilk also saw that painting when he went into the cenoby to fetch Marble\nanother habit. He noted that the Molpe painting was one of \"three faded\npictures\" . (LS3, 4) Would a painting have faded noticeably in Rose's\nlifetime? Or is the fading more consistent with a period of 184 years?\n\nNow that trunk. On that first trip to the attic Marble also noticed an old,\nrusted, tin trunk. She tried to recall who had owned it, \"eventually running\ndown the whole list--every sibyl who had ever lived in the cenoby--without\nfinding a single tin trunk among the associated facts\". When a sibyl died,\nwhat few personal possessions she had were either shared among the other\nsibyls or returned to her family. The fact that she knew the names--had a\nlist in a memory file--of \"every sibyl who had ever lived in the cenoby\" is\nbecause Marble had spent her entire career aboard the _Whorl_ at the Sun\nStreet Manteion. Remember, it has been 184 years since she last opened that\nattic door, and the tool to hook the door with has been lost for \"more than\na century\". She goes on to think: \"She hadn't been up there, no one had--\"\nThere is no way, then, for that trunk to have belonged to Rose, but there is\nmore misdirection, by Wolfe, about this trunk.\n\nOn her second trip to the attic Marble again noted the trunk, only this time\nmatter-of-factly thinking \"and here was her old trunk\". Then she searches\nher files again for the word \"trunk\", only to come up with the same useless\nlist of names. Then she changes the search word to \"footlocker\" and, bingo,\n\"Here was a list of the dresses she had worn before they had voted to admit\nher. Her perfume. The commonplace book that she had kept for the mere\npleasure of writing in it, of practicing her hand.\" The trunk had been\nMarble's, the perfume and dresses in it those she had worn before becoming a\nsibyl; sibyls have no use for such feminine things. Marble reinforces the\nidea that the trunk is hers when she mentions to Quetzal that, before she\nstarted teaching, she kept a sort of diary \"to practice my hand\". The\nproblem is, _that trunk had been in the attic for at least 184 years_! Its\ncontents had never been dispersed because Marble was still alive.\n\nNow, either Wolfe screwed up here (and went out of his way to do it!), or\nthat \"fifty-odd years\" figure mentioned earlier must be re-examined. Note\nthe vote \"to admit her\" in the above quote. If it is true that Marble hadn't\nbeen in that attic for 184 years, and if the contents of the trunk were\nhers, then what was the vote intended to admit her to? Not to be a teacher\nor a sibyl; she was drafted to be the former and more or less forced to\nbecome the latter and, in any event, she didn't become a teacher until\nfifty-odd years ago.\n\nWhat is going on here? Who posed for the painting, when? Whose trunk was it,\nand when was it put in the attic?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-09-24T01:09:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The cenoby files", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy wrote about the painting and the trunk. I'll address the trunk part." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Marble first went up to the attic, she searched her memory for how long\nit had been since she had last done that; 184 years before. (LS3, 5) She had\nbeen a \"graceful girl\" then; in fact, she had been a \"graceful girl\" for 120\nyears by then, because the _Whorl_ has been gone from Urth for 300 years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now that trunk. On that first trip to the attic Marble also noticed an old,\nrusted, tin trunk. She tried to recall who had owned it, \"eventually running\ndown the whole list--every sibyl who had ever lived in the cenoby--without\nfinding a single tin trunk among the associated facts\". When a sibyl died,\nwhat few personal possessions she had were either shared among the other\nsibyls or returned to her family. The fact that she knew the names--had a\nlist in a memory file--of \"every sibyl who had ever lived in the cenoby\" is\nbecause Marble had spent her entire career aboard the _Whorl_ at the Sun\nStreet Manteion. Remember, it has been 184 years since she last opened that\nattic door, and the tool to hook the door with has been lost for \"more than\na century\". She goes on to think: \"She hadn't been up there, no one had--\"\nThere is no way, then, for that trunk to have belonged to Rose, but there is\nmore misdirection, by Wolfe, about this trunk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The\nproblem is, _that trunk had been in the attic for at least 184 years_! Its\ncontents had never been dispersed because Marble was still alive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's stop there.\n\nFact: Marble hasn't been there in 184 years.\nFact: Marble supposes that nobody had been up there for a century.\n\nThe crux of your point seems to be that Marble implies or believes that she\nsaw the trunk there on her last visit, 184 years earlier (a paradox), but\nas I read over the text in the book it seems to me that Marble does =not=\nsay that she saw the trunk there on her last visit (184 years earlier).\n\nThus, it resolves: the last time she went up into the attic she was a maid,\nthen she put away her maid gear and became a sibyl, at which point =someone\nelse= put her footlocker up in the attic, and now she enters the attic to\nsee an unfamiliar trunk which is her forgotten old life. Her supposition\nabout the amount of time since anybody else had been up there is simply\nwrong.\n\nOr am I once again missing something?\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2002-09-24T03:17:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The cenoby files", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 4:57 PM -0500 9/23/02, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nShe has nothing but contempt for\nMarble, as shown by her persistent refusal to use the customary honorific\n\"Maytera\" when speaking to others of her: \"Marble's still fooling around in\nthe kitchen. The littlest thing takes that girl forever.\" (LS1, 8) Note the\n\"that girl\", even though Marble is more than three times as old as Rose. To\nRose, Marble is \"that girl\" because Rose remembers her when she still had\nher girlish face and synthetic-bio covering." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy,\n\nI'm glad to hear you say that \"there are some puzzles I can't seem to \nwork out\" regarding BotLS. I couldn't work out practically all of \nthem.\n\nI haven't read the books in quite some time. I remember the puzzle of \nthe picture, but had totally forgotten about the puzzle of the trunk, \nif I even realized it was a puzzle back then.\n\nI'm not going to shed any light on your puzzles, but I did have a \ndifferent interpretation of the passage you quote above. I took it to \nmean that Marble was still a maid when Rose first knew her and she \nstill thought of her as one. While I admit that I am basing this on \nhistorical novels, movies and television, it seems to me that a \nfemale servant may have been called \"girl\" long after she too old to \nreally be one, especially if she was a member of a class or \nespecially a minority group that her \"masters\" felt was inferior to \nthemselves. It seems to me that an an aristocratic young English \nwoman might have called an older female servant girl and certainly an \naristocratic young woman of the antebellum American South would have \ndone so with an older female colored (as she would have said) \nservant. To me, Rose's remark about Marble is exactly the kind of \nthing a woman might say about a kitchen maid that she didn't much \ncare for.\n\nThis is not to say that Marble didn't also retain her girlish \nappearance when Rose first knew her, but I don't think it is \nnecessarily the case that she did." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-09-24T04:16:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The cenoby files", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nLet's stop there.\n\nFact: Marble hasn't been there in 184 years.\nFact: Marble supposes that nobody had been up there for a century.\n\nThe crux of your point seems to be that Marble implies or believes that she\nsaw the trunk there on her last visit, 184 years earlier (a paradox), but\nas I read over the text in the book it seems to me that Marble does =not=\nsay that she saw the trunk there on her last visit (184 years earlier)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, no. Your reading of the text is correct; she did not see the trunk on a\nvisit 184 years ago. As I said in the second paragraph: \"But both trips to\nthe attic came after Rose's death.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thus, it resolves: the last time she went up into the attic she was a maid,\nthen she put away her maid gear and became a sibyl, at which point =someone\nelse= put her footlocker up in the attic, and now she enters the attic to\nsee an unfamiliar trunk which is her forgotten old life. Her supposition\nabout the amount of time since anybody else had been up there is simply\nwrong.\n\nOr am I once again missing something?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She may have been wrong, on the first of those two trips to the attic, about\nit being 184 years ago when, still a graceful girl, she had last pulled down\nthose attic steps--I have no way of knowing. She may be wrong, too, about no\none else having been up there in over a century (the amount of time the\ndoor-hooking tool had been lost)--again, I have no way of knowing. But was\nshe also wrong about having been a teacher and sibyl for only fifty-odd\nyears? She said she started teaching when Pike was a young augur. If she was\nright about teaching only for the last fifty-odd years, then that trunk\ncan't hold her old maid gear; not if no one has opened that attic door for\nmore than a century. That's why I'm puzzled.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-09-24T14:25:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The cenoby files", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nNo, no. Your reading of the text is correct; she did not see the trunk on a\nvisit 184 years ago. As I said in the second paragraph: \"But both trips to\nthe attic came after Rose's death.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It might just be me, but I find myself confused to distraction by your use\nof number of trips in this case. (Not that it is your fault, just that it\nis all confusing.) I mean, we are really talking about three trips: the\n\"last one\" 184 years ago (year 148) and two trips on a day in year 332. If\nyou are saying that the two trips in 332 happened after Rose's death, I\nagree with you, but I don't understand why you are bringing it up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thus, it resolves: the last time she went up into the attic she was a maid,\nthen she put away her maid gear and became a sibyl, at which point =someone\nelse= put her footlocker up in the attic, and now she enters the attic to\nsee an unfamiliar trunk which is her forgotten old life. Her supposition\nabout the amount of time since anybody else had been up there is simply\nwrong.\n\nOr am I once again missing something?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She may have been wrong, on the first of those two trips to the attic, about\nit being 184 years ago when, still a graceful girl, she had last pulled down\nthose attic steps--I have no way of knowing. She may be wrong, too, about no\none else having been up there in over a century (the amount of time the\ndoor-hooking tool had been lost)--again, I have no way of knowing. But was\nshe also wrong about having been a teacher and sibyl for only fifty-odd\nyears? She said she started teaching when Pike was a young augur. If she was\nright about teaching only for the last fifty-odd years, then that trunk\ncan't hold her old maid gear; not if no one has opened that attic door for\nmore than a century. That's why I'm puzzled." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I understand it correctly, all Marble has to be wrong about is her guess\nthat it has been a century or more since someone went up there. The trunk\nis there, ergo someone was up there fifty years ago to drop off a trunk\n(not to clean the attic, mind you, just drop off a trunk: so the trunk\nitself has only 50 years of dust upon it while the attic has nearly the\namount of two centuries!).\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-09-24T16:49:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The cenoby files", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--------------F475610FF3241803C2226D86\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\n\nRoy,\n\nThere's a very short quote in ON BLUE'S WATERS that mentions the painting, and I\nthought you might like to consider it. The scene is not too long after Krait\nhas saved Horn from the pit. They have gone back to the sloop and Krait has\noffered to help Horn find Seawrack, and while they are sailing out of the little\nbay in which the sloop was moored, Horn begins addressing the extra powers of\nsight that he has acquired -- how he sees everything as if it (and he) were in a\npainting. This reminds him of the paintings in the cenoby, and he writes, \"You\n[Nettle] told me about the beautiful pictures upstairs in the cenoby and I put\nthem in our book because Maytera Marble had posed for Molpe.\" (Tor hardback\npage 228)\n\nFrom this unambiguous statement, it is clear that Marble (not Rose) posed for\nthe painting. The resolution of the puzzle is to realize that it wasn't\n*really* Marble posing for the painting but Magnesia, her former and discarded\npersonality. When maid-of-all-work Magnesia became Maytera Marble, she put away\nher old life entirely. Thus, when she said that she had posed for the painting,\nthat was a slip-up. Magnesia, not Marble, had posed for that painting. Thus,\nto maintain the lie that she was Maytera Marble, she had to \"confess\" the lie\nshe told about the painting. Marble felt \"flattered\" by the postulant's\nadmiration because she was the one who actually posed.\n\nI think this might also explain why Marble keeps repeatedly confessing this\n\"lie\" to Maytera Betel. I don't recall if this is directly addressed in the\ntext, but if Magnesia's reason for becoming Maytera Marble is because she was in\nsome kind of trouble and needed to hide, then I think you are correct in your\nguess that it was upon becoming a maytera that Magnesia got rid of her\nhuman-looking face. If that is the case -- that Magnesia was hiding from\nsomething and that Betel was instrumental in keeping her hid -- then Betel would\nhave gone to great lengths to ensure that Magnesia stayed hidden, since Betel\nwas an \"accomplice\" as it were. And if Betel found out that Marble had admitted\nto a postulant that she had posed as Molpe in the painting, Betel might very\nwell have been distraught at Marble's clumsiness, and to make sure Marble didn't\nsuffer any more bouts of clumsiness, she kept reminding her of her slip-up,\nforcing Marble to confess again and again so that the point would be hammered\nhome that she could not afford any more such mistakes.\n\nIf all of this is true, it's even more interesting to think of Betel's efforts\nto conceal Patera Pike's child from him, isn't it? It makes Betel a very\ninteresting off-stage character, and not an entirely likeable one. It seems\nthat both Rose and Marble were \"hidden\" in some sense by Betel, and that she\nwent to great lengths -- even cruel lengths -- to make sure her secretes stayed\nsecret. It also raises the question of whether Magnesia was hidden because she\nknew of Rose's pregnancy. I can't think of a reason why this would necessitate\nher going into hiding, though, so that might not be a very good guess.\n\nCharles" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nAbout that painting. On her second trip to the attic (LS3, 8) she was\nthinking about the painting on the wall of the second-floor hallway of the\ncenoby, the one of Molpe blessing an old woman and some doves. She says she\nhad lied when she told a postulant once that she had posed as Molpe, \"almost\nthe only lie she had ever told\". Yet she seems to have a memory of having\nposed for that painting. At any rate, she goes on to think she \"could not\nhave been a sibyl then, only the sibyls' maid\". In other words, she was\nstill just the maid at the time that picture was painted.\n\nMarble did not pose for it; that was a lie, as she confessed. She told the\nlie because she wanted, as an old woman will who was once beautiful, the\nyoung postulant to understand that she had once been young, too; that\nsomewhere inside she was still \"that girl\". Wolfe is particularly tricky\nabout that painting, mingling memories and misdirecting the reader. The\nmemory of having posed comes from Rose, evidently, despite the comments\nabout chems making better models. Here is the relevant passage:\n\n \"She [Marble] could not have been a sibyl then, only the sibyls' maid;\nbut the artist had been a relative of the Senior Sibyl's, who had agreed to\nlet her [Rose] pose. Chems could hold a pose much longer than bios. All\nartists, he had said, used chems when they could, although he had used his\nmother for the old woman because chems never looked old. . . .\n \"She smiled at that, tilting her head far back and to the right. The\nhinges, then the other track.\n \"He had given them the picture when it was done.\"\n\nThat picture, then, was painted more than fifty years ago, when Marble still\nhad her girlish looks and Rose was a relatively young, attractive, slender\nsibyl. Marble's lie eventually became the truth. A single word in the\nfollowing quote is all that gives me any reason to doubt this explication of\nthat picture: \"A chubby postulant whose name she could not recall had\nadmired it; and she, thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble, flattered, had said\nthat she had posed for Molpe.\" How and why should Marble have felt\n\"flattered\" if it was a lie? If it wasn't a lie, why would she repeatedly\nconfess it to Betel at each shriving, such false confessions themselves\nconstituting more lies? Remember, that lie was told many years before Marble\nacquired some of Rose's parts and personality.\n\nFifty-odd years ago, Rose was close to forty. Both Marble and Rose have\nindependent memories of Maytera Betel when each was a sibyl; Marble of\nconfessing over and over to her for the lie about posing for the painting,\nRose of Betel's help with her pregnancy. When Marble told that lie she was,\nby her own account, \"thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble\". So, since Rose\nremembers Marble when she was \"that girl\", either Marble suffered a rather\nprecipitous breakdown of her girlish facade, or she was made to give it up,\npossibly as a condition of teaching. It wouldn't do to have a teacher who\nlooked like a girl herself.\n\nSilk also saw that painting when he went into the cenoby to fetch Marble\nanother habit. He noted that the Molpe painting was one of \"three faded\npictures\" . (LS3, 4) Would a painting have faded noticeably in Rose's\nlifetime? Or is the fading more consistent with a period of 184 years?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "--------------F475610FF3241803C2226D86\nContent-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\n\n\n\nRoy,\nThere's a very short quote in ON BLUE'S WATERS that mentions the\npainting, and I thought you might like to consider it.  The scene\nis not too long after Krait has saved Horn from the pit.  They have\ngone back to the sloop and Krait has offered to help Horn find Seawrack,\nand while they are sailing out of the little bay in which the sloop was\nmoored, Horn begins addressing the extra powers of sight that he has acquired\n-- how he sees everything as if it (and he) were in a painting.  This\nreminds him of the paintings in the cenoby, and he writes, \"You [Nettle]\ntold me about the beautiful pictures upstairs in the cenoby and I put them\nin our book because Maytera Marble had posed for Molpe.\"  (Tor hardback\npage 228)\nFrom this unambiguous statement, it is clear that Marble (not Rose)\nposed for the painting.  The resolution of the puzzle is to realize\nthat it wasn't *really* Marble posing for the painting but Magnesia, her\nformer and discarded personality.  When maid-of-all-work Magnesia\nbecame Maytera Marble, she put away her old life entirely.  Thus,\nwhen she said that she had posed for the painting, that was a slip-up. \nMagnesia, not Marble, had posed for that painting.  Thus, to maintain\nthe lie that she was Maytera Marble, she had to \"confess\" the lie she told\nabout the painting.  Marble felt \"flattered\" by the postulant's admiration\nbecause she was the one who actually posed.\nI think this might also explain why Marble keeps repeatedly confessing\nthis \"lie\" to Maytera Betel.  I don't recall if this is directly addressed\nin the text, but if Magnesia's reason for becoming Maytera Marble is because\nshe was in some kind of trouble and needed to hide, then I think you are\ncorrect in your guess that it was upon becoming a maytera that Magnesia\ngot rid of her human-looking face.  If that is the case -- that Magnesia\nwas hiding from something and that Betel was instrumental in keeping her\nhid -- then Betel would have gone to great lengths to ensure that Magnesia\nstayed hidden, since Betel was an \"accomplice\" as it were.  And if\nBetel found out that Marble had admitted to a postulant that she had posed\nas Molpe in the painting, Betel might very well have been distraught at\nMarble's clumsiness, and to make sure Marble didn't suffer any more bouts\nof clumsiness, she kept reminding her of her slip-up, forcing Marble to\nconfess again and again so that the point would be hammered home that she\ncould not afford any more such mistakes.\nIf all of this is true, it's even more interesting to think of Betel's\nefforts to conceal Patera Pike's child from him, isn't it?  It makes\nBetel a very interesting off-stage character, and not an entirely likeable\none.  It seems that both Rose and Marble were \"hidden\" in some sense\nby Betel, and that she went to great lengths -- even cruel lengths -- to\nmake sure her secretes stayed secret.  It also raises the question\nof whether Magnesia was hidden because she knew of Rose's pregnancy. \nI can't think of a reason why this would necessitate her going into hiding,\nthough, so that might not be a very good guess.\nCharles\n \n \n\"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nAbout that painting. On her second trip to the\nattic (LS3, 8) she was\nthinking about the painting on the wall of the second-floor hallway\nof the\ncenoby, the one of Molpe blessing an old woman and some doves.\nShe says she\nhad lied when she told a postulant once that she had posed as Molpe,\n\"almost\nthe only lie she had ever told\". Yet she seems to have a memory\nof having\nposed for that painting. At any rate, she goes on to think she\n\"could not\nhave been a sibyl then, only the sibyls' maid\". In other words,\nshe was\nstill just the maid at the time that picture was painted.\nMarble did not pose for it; that was a lie, as she confessed. She\ntold the\nlie because she wanted, as an old woman will who was once beautiful,\nthe\nyoung postulant to understand that she had once been young, too;\nthat\nsomewhere inside she was still \"that girl\". Wolfe is particularly\ntricky\nabout that painting, mingling memories and misdirecting the reader.\nThe\nmemory of having posed comes from Rose, evidently, despite the\ncomments\nabout chems making better models. Here is the relevant passage:\n    \"She [Marble] could not have been a sibyl then,\nonly the sibyls' maid;\nbut the artist had been a relative of the Senior Sibyl's, who had\nagreed to\nlet her [Rose] pose. Chems could hold a pose much longer than bios.\nAll\nartists, he had said, used chems when they could, although he had\nused his\nmother for the old woman because chems never looked old. . . .\n    \"She smiled at that, tilting her head far back\nand to the right. The\nhinges, then the other track.\n    \"He had given them the picture when it was done.\"\nThat picture, then, was painted more than fifty years ago, when\nMarble still\nhad her girlish looks and Rose was a relatively young, attractive,\nslender\nsibyl. Marble's lie eventually became the truth. A single word\nin the\nfollowing quote is all that gives me any reason to doubt this explication\nof\nthat picture: \"A chubby postulant whose name she could not recall\nhad\nadmired it; and she, thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble, flattered,\nhad said\nthat she had posed for Molpe.\" How and why should Marble have felt\n\"flattered\" if it was a lie? If it wasn't a lie, why would she\nrepeatedly\nconfess it to Betel at each shriving, such false confessions themselves\nconstituting more lies? Remember, that lie was told many years\nbefore Marble\nacquired some of Rose's parts and personality.\nFifty-odd years ago, Rose was close to forty. Both Marble and Rose\nhave\nindependent memories of Maytera Betel when each was a sibyl; Marble\nof\nconfessing over and over to her for the lie about posing for the\npainting,\nRose of Betel's help with her pregnancy. When Marble told that\nlie she was,\nby her own account, \"thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble\". So, since\nRose\nremembers Marble when she was \"that girl\", either Marble suffered\na rather\nprecipitous breakdown of her girlish facade, or she was made to\ngive it up,\npossibly as a condition of teaching. It wouldn't do to have a teacher\nwho\nlooked like a girl herself.\nSilk also saw that painting when he went into the cenoby to fetch\nMarble\nanother habit. He noted that the Molpe painting was one of \"three\nfaded\npictures\" . (LS3, 4) Would a painting have faded noticeably in\nRose's\nlifetime? Or is the fading more consistent with a period of 184\nyears?\n\n\n--------------F475610FF3241803C2226D86--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-09-24T16:50:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The cenoby files", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It might just be me, but I find myself confused to distraction by your use\nof number of trips in this case. (Not that it is your fault, just that it\nis all confusing.) I mean, we are really talking about three trips: the\n\"last one\" 184 years ago (year 148) and two trips on a day in year 332. If\nyou are saying that the two trips in 332 happened after Rose's death, I\nagree with you, but I don't understand why you are bringing it up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry to be confusing. I brought it up because that's the way the text has\nit. Marble made the second trip (on the same day as the first, iirc) for two\nreasons; to lubricate the attic entrance to facilitate any future entry, and\nto gain access to the roof to get a better look at the airship. The day Rose\ndied, Marble's CPU was overheating badly and she was having trouble climbing\nstairs. She is thrilled with the new-found zest she acquired when she took\nRose's used parts. After she got the sticking attic steps down she thought:\n\n \"I'll oil this, she resolved. I don't care if there isn't any oil. I'll\ncut up some fat from that bull and boil it, and skim off the grease and\nstrain it, and use that. Because this _isn't_ the last time. It is _not_.\n \"She trotted up the folding steps in an energetic flurry of black\nbombazine.\n \"Just look how good my leg is! Praise to you, Great Pas!\"\n\nShe left the attic stairs down so she could lubricate them later. Later,\nafter lubricating the mechanism, she made her second trip to the attic, and\nit was then that she changed the search word from trunk to footlocker. The\n184 years ago bit is on the page prior to the above quote.\n\n \"Maytera Marble tried to decide how long it had been since she had done\nthis, entering _roof_, and when that evoked only a flood of dripping\nceilings and soaked carpets, _attic_.\n \"A hundred and eighty-four years ago.\n \"She could scarcely believe it--did not wish to believe it. A graceful\ngirl with laughing eyes and industrious hands had climbed this same stair,\nas she still did a score of times every day, walked along this hall, and\nhalted beneath this odd-looking door overhead, reaching up with a tool that\nhad been lost now for more than a century.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She may have been wrong, on the first of those two trips to the attic,\nabout\nit being 184 years ago when, still a graceful girl, she had last pulled\ndown\nthose attic steps--I have no way of knowing. She may be wrong, too, about\nno\none else having been up there in over a century (the amount of time the\ndoor-hooking tool had been lost)--again, I have no way of knowing. But was\nshe also wrong about having been a teacher and sibyl for only fifty-odd\nyears? She said she started teaching when Pike was a young augur. If she\nwas\nright about teaching only for the last fifty-odd years, then that trunk\ncan't hold her old maid gear; not if no one has opened that attic door for\nmore than a century. That's why I'm puzzled." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I understand it correctly, all Marble has to be wrong about is her guess\nthat it has been a century or more since someone went up there. The trunk\nis there, ergo someone was up there fifty years ago to drop off a trunk\n(not to clean the attic, mind you, just drop off a trunk: so the trunk\nitself has only 50 years of dust upon it while the attic has nearly the\namount of two centuries!)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When Marble was pressed into teaching only two sibyls were then living, fat\nBetel and fortyish Rose. Bio sibyls don't perform manual labor; there's no\nway either of those women carried a trunk up to the attic for a chem maid,\nand Pike couldn't enter the cenoby. Marble put that trunk up there.\n\nAs for the 184 vs. 50 year spans, I can't explain it. But Marble is a\nmachine; her memory consists of computer files. Those files might get\noverwritten or she might lose access to them, but the information in her\nfiles (like the list of sibyls and the list of dresses) either exists or it\ndoesn't. If the file(s) containing her memory of 184 years ago contains\nerroneous data, _how did it get there_?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-09-24T17:20:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The cenoby files", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nWhen Marble was pressed into teaching only two sibyls were then living, fat\nBetel and fortyish Rose. Bio sibyls don't perform manual labor; there's no\nway either of those women carried a trunk up to the attic for a chem maid,\nand Pike couldn't enter the cenoby. Marble put that trunk up there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not necessarily. Based on the theory that I put forth in my last post, Betel\nwas involved in \"hiding\" maid-of-all-work Magnesia as Maytera Marble. In such\ncircumstances, I can easily see how Betel \"took care of\" Magnesia's old things.\nEither Betel climbed into the attic to hide the trunk or she had someone else do\nit -- presumably Rose.\n\nTo me, the only thing that's still unresolved about the whole issue is this: If\nMagnesia used to go up and down the attic steps several times a day during her\ncleaning duties, and she stopped doing that 184 years ago, and she didn't become\nMaytera Marble until some 50-odd years ago (call it 54 years ago), what was she\ndoing during the intervening 130 years?\n\nCharles" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-09-24T18:07:47+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The cenoby files", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's too complex to explain here, but for now I'll give the answer and toss\nout a few of the dots for you to connect.\n\nMarble lied about posing for the picture. It was Molybdenum who posed for\nit. Marble lied about posing, ostensibly (the sheerest of facades) to\nprotect Betel. She, of course told Betel during shriving that she did it to\nhide the fact that Molydenum had been dismantled and her parts given to\nBetel. If Marble was at the cenoby at the time, she was already too worn out\nfor her parts to be appealing\n\nThe description of Marble becoming a teacher is pied with the story of Moly\nagreeing to sacrifice herself for Betel. It is told in the presence of\nHammerstone and Marble pies the story to fool him and Silk simultaneously.\nSilk sees the story doesn't add up as he always does eventually. Notice how\ncarefully she selects her words at the end of LS4, 11:\n\"...and so Maytera called - called upon...\"\nHammerstone explained, 'She drafted Moly'.\n'Upon me...I put my hand on the Writings and promised, and Maytera and\nMaytera Rose witnessed it and kissed me, and--and I got new clothes.\"\n\nExtracted like this it is obvious that she finds it difficult to call Betel\nby name. Moly's identity is greatly merged with Betel's.\n\nBut Marble continued to vindictively bring up her lie during shriving before\nBetel - reminding Betel that there used to be a pretty maid at the cenoby.\nLater, Rose inherited the parts from Betel - and she treated Marble with\ncontempt to \"de-humanize\" her, because otherwise it she would be a party to\nmurder. Finally the parts came to Marble. Marble's reference to the ivory\n(animal) beads on a silver (metal) chain she inherited from Betel (LS4, 11)\nwas a hint that she had inherited much more from her.\n\nThe chems had no need to enter the attic very often since it seems to have\nonly been used to store the unwanted belongings of deceased sibyls. Perhaps\nchem maids weren't ordinarily admitted there for that reason. The attic also\nkept the belongings of poor Moly. The trunk belonged to Moly. She didn't\nrecognize it because it had rusted in the attic after all those years. But\nMarble/Moly is certain that it NEVER belonged to any sibyl at the cenoby,\nbecause it had belonged to a maid there. Marble's opening of the trunk is\nnot recorded but she certainly did. And she read the diary and\nre-familiarized herself with her \"former\" life.\n\nStill a mystery to me is whether Betel had the parts only for a short while\nbefore dying and so the parts did not have time to absorb Betel's\npersonality before she died, OR was the crotchety bitter crone that Rose\nbecame, her inheritance from Betel? Do Betel's memories surface in Marble as\ndo Rose's and Moly's?\n\nWhatever, Marble contained within herself Magnesia, Rose, and Molydenum and\nher memories after Rose's death are a mixture of those.\n\nCrush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-09-24T19:36:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The cenoby files", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Charles Reed writes:\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "painting. This reminds him of the paintings in the cenoby, and he writes,\n\"You\n[Nettle] told me about the beautiful pictures upstairs in the cenoby and I\nput\nthem in our book because Maytera Marble had posed for Molpe.\" (Tor\nhardback\npage 228)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From this unambiguous statement, it is clear that Marble (not Rose) posed\nfor\nthe painting. The resolution of the puzzle is to realize that it wasn't\n*really* Marble posing for the painting but Magnesia, her former and\ndiscarded\npersonality. When maid-of-all-work Magnesia became Maytera Marble, she put\naway\nher old life entirely. Thus, when she said that she had posed for the\npainting,\nthat was a slip-up. Magnesia, not Marble, had posed for that painting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thus," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to maintain the lie that she was Maytera Marble, she had to \"confess\" the\nlie\nshe told about the painting. Marble felt \"flattered\" by the postulant's\nadmiration because she was the one who actually posed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know that the statement in OBW can be construed as\n\"unambiguous\"--Horn and Nettle were the source for both sets of data, after\nall. That sort of technical hairsplitting--which name she was using at the\ntime of the lie--might impress a lawyer, but are the gods from whom she\nseeks absolution really that easily fooled? Marble knew perfectly well that\nher original name had been Magnesia, as did Betel and Rose. If it was when\nshe still called herself Magnesia that she posed for the painting, then she\ndidn't lie to the postulant, regardless of what the postulant thought about\nit. At the worst it was a misapprehension, not a lie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this might also explain why Marble keeps repeatedly confessing this\n\"lie\" to Maytera Betel. I don't recall if this is directly addressed in\nthe\ntext, but if Magnesia's reason for becoming Maytera Marble is because she\nwas in\nsome kind of trouble and needed to hide," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Magnesia wasn't trying to hide; she became a sibyl because parents were\ncomplaining that their children were now being taught by a laywoman. _All_\nwomen take a new name when they become sibyls." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "then I think you are correct in your\nguess that it was upon becoming a maytera that Magnesia got rid of her\nhuman-looking face. If that is the case -- that Magnesia was hiding from\nsomething and that Betel was instrumental in keeping her hid -- then Betel\nwould\nhave gone to great lengths to ensure that Magnesia stayed hidden, since\nBetel\nwas an \"accomplice\" as it were. And if Betel found out that Marble had\nadmitted\nto a postulant that she had posed as Molpe in the painting, Betel might\nvery\nwell have been distraught at Marble's clumsiness, and to make sure Marble\ndidn't\nsuffer any more bouts of clumsiness, she kept reminding her of her slip-up,\nforcing Marble to confess again and again so that the point would be\nhammered\nhome that she could not afford any more such mistakes.\n\nIf all of this is true, it's even more interesting to think of Betel's\nefforts\nto conceal Patera Pike's child from him, isn't it? It makes Betel a very\ninteresting off-stage character, and not an entirely likeable one. It\nseems\nthat both Rose and Marble were \"hidden\" in some sense by Betel, and that\nshe\nwent to great lengths -- even cruel lengths -- to make sure her secretes\nstayed\nsecret. It also raises the question of whether Magnesia was hidden because\nshe\nknew of Rose's pregnancy. I can't think of a reason why this would\nnecessitate\nher going into hiding, though, so that might not be a very good guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see how Magnesia could have failed to know of Rose's pregnancy; not\neven a chem could have been that ignorant of human physiology. Magnesia\nwould have seen pregnant mothers all the time at the school. In any event,\nshe was at the cenoby both before and after Rose's pregnancy.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-09-25T19:52:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The cenoby files", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nCharles Reed writes:\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This reminds him of the paintings in the cenoby, and he writes, \"You\n[Nettle] told me about the beautiful pictures upstairs in the cenoby\nand I put them in our book because Maytera Marble had posed for Molpe.\"\n(Tor hardback page 228)\n\nFrom this unambiguous statement, it is clear that Marble (not Rose)\nposed for the painting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know that the statement in OBW can be construed as\n\"unambiguous\"--Horn and Nettle were the source for both sets of data, after\nall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Personally, I think that's as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets. It seems like\nthere are at least a few instances where some issue that has been confusing in a\nprevious book gets a clear-cut statement of fact in a follow-up book, especially\nissues that GW didn't intend to be ambiguous. So, for my two cents, if Horn\nstates flat-out that Marble posed for that painting, then I tend to accept such\na statement at face value." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...Magnesia wasn't trying to hide; she became a sibyl because parents were\ncomplaining that their children were now being taught by a laywoman. _All_\nwomen take a new name when they become sibyls." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I stand corrected. Sometimes I get a germ of an idea and then get carried away\nwith it. I've looked through my books and can find no evidence that Magnesia\nbecame Maytera Marble in order to \"hide\" from something. And since that appears\nto be the case, then my previous explanation of Marble's reasons for confessing\nthis lie makes no sense. Please pardon my over-enthusiastic theorizing. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see how Magnesia could have failed to know of Rose's pregnancy; not\neven a chem could have been that ignorant of human physiology. Magnesia\nwould have seen pregnant mothers all the time at the school. In any event,\nshe was at the cenoby both before and after Rose's pregnancy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not that it's really relevant (since my \"theory\" was justifiably shot down), but\nPatera Pike was kept in the dark about Rose's pregnancy, so it's at least\nconceivable that Magnesia/Marble could also have been kept in the dark about\nit. I don't recall that bit about Magnesia being pressed into service because\nthe parents were upset at having their kids taught by a laywoman, however. Do\nyou recall where that is?\n\nAt the very least, however, Rose's pregnancy and Magnesia's transformation into\nMaytera Marble seem to be related, if only because they happened around the same\ntime (50+ years ago). And it's not unreasonable to assume that they are\ndirectly related: Rose, being pregnant and needing to hide that fact from\nPatera Pike would not be able to do a whole lot of teaching, which would give\nrise to the need for a substitute. Magnesia knew how to write, how to\ncalculate, and was already employed at the manteion, so she was a reasonable and\ncost-effective solution.\n\nNOW TO THE GOOD STUFF:\n\nI think I've finally worked out the solution of the painting, but it's rather\nconvoluted. Maybe this theory will be shot down as well, but I actually think\nthis one hangs together. Please read the whole sequence before you pronounce it\nhorse-hockey:\n\n1. While still the sibyls' maid, MAGNESIA posed for the painting.\n\n2. Perhaps ROSE is alive at the time the picture is painted, but perhaps not --\nit doesn't really matter. What does matter is that at some point\nMAGNESIA/MARBLE tells ROSE that she had posed for the painting.\n\n3. One day a chubby postulant was standing with MAYTERA ROSE, admiring the\npainting, when Rose claims that she had been the one to pose as Molpe. There\nmight be several reasons for this lie, one of which I'll put forward\nmomentarily. Whatever the reason, she lied and claimed that she was the one who\nhad posed. The postulant was absolutely incredulous -- even openly shocked at\nwhat she was hearing -- either because she couldn't see any resemblance between\nRose and the beautiful girl in the picture, or because she already knew who the\nreal model had been. My personal opinion about why ROSE lied is that when this\nlie was told, MARBLE was at least within earshot and might have been standing\nright next to ROSE and her postulant, and that ROSE told the lie knowing that\nMARBLE would overhear it. (Now that's pretty damn cold.)\n\n4. Even if not very likeable as a person, Rose is a very devout woman. She\nfeels terrible about the cruelty of this particular lie and confesses it to\nMaytera Betel at every shriving.\n\n5. Rose dies and some of her parts get incorporated into MAYTERA MARBLE.\n\n6. When going up to the attic one day to get a better look at the airship,\nMAYTERA MARBLE notices the painting and some very bizarre memories are evoked.\nShe remembers (as MAGNESIA) posing for the painting while still a maid. She\nalso remembers (as ROSE) having lied to a postulant about posing for the\npainting, as well as ROSE'S subsequent confessions. But her identity is so\nconfused -- especially so soon after incorporating her new parts and new\nmemories -- that she begins mixing things together. That's how we get a\nsentence like this: \"A chubby postulant whose name she could not recall had\nadmired it; and she, thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble, flattered, had said\nthat she had posed for Molpe.\" She recalls ROSE'S memories of having lied and\n*also* recalls MARBLE'S feelings at the time -- first the feeling of being\nflattered by the postulant's praise and then the feelings (created by the lie)\nof being thin, faceless, and old.\n\nWhat do you think?\n\nCharles" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-09-26T23:14:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The cenoby files", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Charles Reed wrote:\nI don't recall that bit about Magnesia being pressed into service\nbecause\nthe parents were upset at having their kids taught by a laywoman, however." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "you recall where that is?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "EXODUS, 232" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the very least, however, Rose's pregnancy and Magnesia's transformation\ninto\nMaytera Marble seem to be related, if only because they happened around the\nsame\ntime (50+ years ago). And it's not unreasonable to assume that they are\ndirectly related: Rose, being pregnant and needing to hide that fact from\nPatera Pike would not be able to do a whole lot of teaching, which would\ngive\nrise to the need for a substitute. Magnesia knew how to write, how to\ncalculate, and was already employed at the manteion, so she was a\nreasonable and\ncost-effective solution." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only clue I'm aware of that may pertain is a left-handed one, and may\njust be a minor mistake by Wolfe. It's in chapter 4 of CALDE, where\nRose-in-Marble is telling Silk about her pregnancy.\n\n \"We [Betel and Rose] pretended I was becoming fat, too. She used to\ntease me about it, and our sibs believed her.\"\n\nIt's the word \"sibs\". When Marble became a teacher, the only living sibyls\nwere Betel and Rose, neither of whom can be one of the sibs in the quote,\nobviously. Then Marble became a sibyl. That's still just one sib to fool.\nSo, either at least two sibyls died in a relatively short time span--while\nRose was demonstrably pregnant--or the cenoby acquired at least one new\nsibyl not too long after Marble became one. The latter choice is the more\nprobable, and we know that the cenoby did in fact have at least one more\nsibyl after Marble--Mockorange, who was Mint's preceptress." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "NOW TO THE GOOD STUFF:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip of theory]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What do you think?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I can't tell you that you're wrong, but it requires a bit of\nsupposing. It would be difficult to prove from the text--but then, so do a\nlot of other theories around here. If Wolfe hadn't included that part about\n\"she, thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble\" in that sentence, it would be a\nlot easier to believe that it was actually Rose who had lied to the\npostulant. That bothers me. We know that Marble lies occasionally, but I\ncan't think of a specific incidence where Rose does so.\n\nI don't pretend to have the answer to the painting puzzle, but it is a\npuzzle, and should be solvable from the text. I just don't know.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }