Subject: (urth) The cenoby files

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:57:40 +0000

Having just completed a slow rereading of the LS series, there are some
puzzles I can't seem to work out. Those bored with nitty-gritty plot details
may want to skip it.

This puzzle is bound up, primarily, in two scenes and two associated
objects. The scenes are Marble's two trips to the attic of the cenoby in
CALDE. She went up there to get to the roof to get a better view of the
Trivigaunti airship. One of the two objects is a painting on the wall of the
second-floor hallway of the cenoby, the other is a trunk in the attic. It's
hard, sometimes, to sort out the pronouns used by Marble after she
assimilated some of Rose's personality, to know which of herselves is meant;
sometimes she switches viewpoints in the same sentence. But both trips to
the attic came after Rose's death. In order to make as much sense of this as
I can, I must first establish some background for both Marble and Rose.

Marble's earliest memory is of the first time she booted up in a huge room
on Urth. She was naked and was given a maids' costume to wear. She was, in
other words, literally created to be a maid. (This is in chapter seven of
EXODUS, the one about the talus factory. There are some clear parallels
regarding taluses and chems there with ideas Wolfe put forth in his Tolkien
essay regarding individuals and their place in society, ideas that Adam
Stephanides, iirc, commented on earlier this year, but I don't want to get
into that here. But I will note that when Marble got "new clothes", as she
puts it, after becoming a sibyl, she had to put aside the clothes she was
created to wear. With her new clothes she assumed a new place in society her
creators had not intended for her. Make of that what you will.) Marble had
been the sibyls' maid when "the first bios moved into the city". (231) She
was just a maid for two and a half centuries.

Marble told Silk that the oldest of the children she had first taught "must
be sixty, or about that. I was--didn't teach until then." (LS1, 3) She was
what? What she was going to say, I believe, was that she had been just the
sibyls' maid up until then. This is confirmed in LS4, when she told Quetzal
why she wanted to be released from her vow. (231-32) She then taught only
the youngest of the children, teaching them "their sums and letters". So,
Marble had been a sibyl for only fifty-odd years.

Now to Rose. She was 40 when she gave birth to Blood. Blood told Silk that
he was 49, but Silk intuited that he was lying, that he was at least five
years older--call it 54. That makes Rose about 94 when she died. Rose is a
bitter, old bitch whom no one likes. She has nothing but contempt for
Marble, as shown by her persistent refusal to use the customary honorific
"Maytera" when speaking to others of her: "Marble's still fooling around in
the kitchen. The littlest thing takes that girl forever." (LS1, 8) Note the
"that girl", even though Marble is more than three times as old as Rose. To
Rose, Marble is "that girl" because Rose remembers her when she still had
her girlish face and synthetic-bio covering.

When Marble first went up to the attic, she searched her memory for how long
it had been since she had last done that; 184 years before. (LS3, 5) She had
been a "graceful girl" then; in fact, she had been a "graceful girl" for 120
years by then, because the _Whorl_  has been gone from Urth for 300 years.

About that painting. On her second trip to the attic (LS3, 8) she was
thinking about the painting on the wall of the second-floor hallway of the
cenoby, the one of Molpe blessing an old woman and some doves. She says she
had lied when she told a postulant once that she had posed as Molpe, "almost
the only lie she had ever told". Yet she seems to have a memory of having
posed for that painting. At any rate, she goes on to think she "could not
have been a sibyl then, only the sibyls' maid". In other words, she was
still just the maid at the time that picture was painted.

Marble did not pose for it; that was a lie, as she confessed. She told the
lie because she wanted, as an old woman will who was once beautiful, the
young postulant to understand that she had once been young, too; that
somewhere inside she was still "that girl". Wolfe is particularly tricky
about that painting, mingling memories and misdirecting the reader. The
memory of having posed comes from Rose, evidently, despite the comments
about chems making better models. Here is the relevant passage:

    "She [Marble] could not have been a sibyl then, only the sibyls' maid;
but the artist had been a relative of the Senior Sibyl's, who had agreed to
let her [Rose] pose. Chems could hold a pose much longer than bios. All
artists, he had said, used chems when they could, although he had used his
mother for the old woman because chems never looked old. . . .
    "She smiled at that, tilting her head far back and to the right. The
hinges, then the other track.
    "He had given them the picture when it was done."

That picture, then, was painted more than fifty years ago, when Marble still
had her girlish looks and Rose was a relatively young, attractive, slender
sibyl. Marble's lie eventually became the truth. A single word in the
following quote is all that gives me any reason to doubt this explication of
that picture: "A chubby postulant whose name she could not recall had
admired it; and she, thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble, flattered, had said
that she had posed for Molpe." How and why should Marble have felt
"flattered" if it was a lie? If it wasn't a lie, why would she repeatedly
confess it to Betel at each shriving, such false confessions themselves
constituting more lies? Remember, that lie was told many years before Marble
acquired some of Rose's parts and personality.

Fifty-odd years ago, Rose was close to forty. Both Marble and Rose have
independent memories of Maytera Betel when each was a sibyl; Marble of
confessing over and over to her for the lie about posing for the painting,
Rose of Betel's help with her pregnancy. When Marble told that lie she was,
by her own account, "thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble". So, since Rose
remembers Marble when she was "that girl", either Marble suffered a rather
precipitous breakdown of her girlish facade, or she was made to give it up,
possibly as a condition of teaching. It wouldn't do to have a teacher who
looked like a girl herself.

Silk also saw that painting when he went into the cenoby to fetch Marble
another habit. He noted that the Molpe painting was one of "three faded
pictures" . (LS3, 4) Would a painting have faded noticeably in Rose's
lifetime? Or is the fading more consistent with a period of 184 years?

Now that trunk. On that first trip to the attic Marble also noticed an old,
rusted, tin trunk. She tried to recall who had owned it, "eventually running
down the whole list--every sibyl who had ever lived in the cenoby--without
finding a single tin trunk among the associated facts". When a sibyl died,
what few personal possessions she had were either shared among the other
sibyls or returned to her family. The fact that she knew the names--had a
list in a memory file--of "every sibyl who had ever lived in the cenoby" is
because Marble had spent her entire career aboard the _Whorl_ at the Sun
Street Manteion. Remember, it has been 184 years since she last opened that
attic door, and the tool to hook the door with has been lost for "more than
a century". She goes on to think: "She hadn't been up there, no one had--"
There is no way, then, for that trunk to have belonged to Rose, but there is
more misdirection, by Wolfe, about this trunk.

On her second trip to the attic Marble again noted the trunk, only this time
matter-of-factly thinking "and here was her old trunk". Then she searches
her files again for the word "trunk", only to come up with the same useless
list of names. Then she changes the search word to "footlocker" and, bingo,
"Here was a list of the dresses she had worn before they had voted to admit
her. Her perfume. The commonplace book that she had kept for the mere
pleasure of writing in it, of practicing her hand." The trunk had been
Marble's, the perfume and dresses in it those she had worn before becoming a
sibyl; sibyls have no use for such feminine things. Marble reinforces the
idea that the trunk is hers when she mentions to Quetzal that, before she
started teaching, she kept a sort of diary "to practice my hand". The
problem is, _that trunk had been in the attic for at least 184 years_! Its
contents had never been dispersed because Marble was still alive.

Now, either Wolfe screwed up here (and went out of his way to do it!), or
that "fifty-odd years" figure mentioned earlier must be re-examined. Note
the vote "to admit her" in the above quote. If it is true that Marble hadn't
been in that attic for 184 years, and if the contents of the trunk were
hers, then what was the vote intended to admit her to? Not to be a teacher
or a sibyl; she was drafted to be the former and more or less forced to
become the latter and, in any event, she didn't become a teacher until
fifty-odd years ago.

What is going on here? Who posed for the painting, when? Whose trunk was it,
and when was it put in the attic?

-Roy

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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 01:09:54 +0000

Roy wrote about the painting and the trunk.  I'll address the trunk part.

>years by then, because the _Whorl_  has been gone from Urth for 300 years.

[snip]

>more misdirection, by Wolfe, about this trunk.

[snip]

>The

Let's stop there.

Fact: Marble hasn't been there in 184 years.
Fact: Marble supposes that nobody had been up there for a century.

The crux of your point seems to be that Marble implies or believes that she
saw the trunk there on her last visit, 184 years earlier (a paradox), but
as I read over the text in the book it seems to me that Marble does =not=
say that she saw the trunk there on her last visit (184 years earlier).

Thus, it resolves: the last time she went up into the attic she was a maid,
then she put away her maid gear and became a sibyl, at which point =someone
else= put her footlocker up in the attic, and now she enters the attic to
see an unfamiliar trunk which is her forgotten old life.  Her supposition
about the amount of time since anybody else had been up there is simply
wrong.

Or am I once again missing something?

=mantis=

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From: William Ansley <wansley at warwick.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 03:17:47 +0000

At 4:57 PM -0500 9/23/02, Roy C. Lackey wrote:
>She has nothing but contempt for

Roy,

I'm glad to hear you say that "there are some puzzles I can't seem to 
work out" regarding BotLS. I couldn't work out practically all of 
them.

I haven't read the books in quite some time. I remember the puzzle of 
the picture, but had totally forgotten about the puzzle of the trunk, 
if I even realized it was a puzzle back then.

I'm not going to shed any light on your puzzles, but I did have a 
different interpretation of the passage you quote above. I took it to 
mean that Marble was still a maid when Rose first knew her and she 
still thought of her as one. While I admit that I am basing this on 
historical novels, movies and television, it seems to me that a 
female servant may have been called "girl" long after she too old to 
really be one, especially if she was a member of a class or 
especially a minority group that her "masters" felt was inferior to 
themselves. It seems to me that an an aristocratic young English 
woman might have called an older female servant girl and certainly an 
aristocratic young woman of the antebellum American South would have 
done so with an older female colored (as she would have said) 
servant. To me, Rose's remark about Marble is exactly the kind of 
thing a woman might say about a kitchen maid that she didn't much 
care for.

This is not to say that Marble didn't also retain her girlish 
appearance when Rose first knew her, but I don't think it is 
necessarily the case that she did.
-- 

William Ansley

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 04:16:00 +0000

>say that she saw the trunk there on her last visit (184 years earlier).

No, no. Your reading of the text is correct; she did not see the trunk on a
visit 184 years ago. As I said in the second paragraph: "But both trips to
the attic came after Rose's death."

>Or am I once again missing something?

She may have been wrong, on the first of those two trips to the attic, about
it being 184 years ago when, still a graceful girl, she had last pulled down
those attic steps--I have no way of knowing. She may be wrong, too, about no
one else having been up there in over a century (the amount of time the
door-hooking tool had been lost)--again, I have no way of knowing. But was
she also wrong about having been a teacher and sibyl for only fifty-odd
years? She said she started teaching when Pike was a young augur. If she was
right about teaching only for the last fifty-odd years, then that trunk
can't hold her old maid gear; not if no one has opened that attic door for
more than a century. That's why I'm puzzled.

-Roy

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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:25:29 +0000

>the attic came after Rose's death."

It might just be me, but I find myself confused to distraction by your use
of number of trips in this case.  (Not that it is your fault, just that it
is all confusing.)  I mean, we are really talking about three trips: the
"last one" 184 years ago (year 148) and two trips on a day in year 332.  If
you are saying that the two trips in 332 happened after Rose's death, I
agree with you, but I don't understand why you are bringing it up.

>more than a century. That's why I'm puzzled.

If I understand it correctly, all Marble has to be wrong about is her guess
that it has been a century or more since someone went up there.  The trunk
is there, ergo someone was up there fifty years ago to drop off a trunk
(not to clean the attic, mind you, just drop off a trunk: so the trunk
itself has only 50 years of dust upon it while the attic has nearly the
amount of two centuries!).

=mantis=

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From: Charles Reed <cmreed at link.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 16:49:11 +0000

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Roy,

There's a very short quote in ON BLUE'S WATERS that mentions the painting, and I
thought you might like to consider it.  The scene is not too long after Krait
has saved Horn from the pit.  They have gone back to the sloop and Krait has
offered to help Horn find Seawrack, and while they are sailing out of the little
bay in which the sloop was moored, Horn begins addressing the extra powers of
sight that he has acquired -- how he sees everything as if it (and he) were in a
painting.  This reminds him of the paintings in the cenoby, and he writes, "You
[Nettle] told me about the beautiful pictures upstairs in the cenoby and I put
them in our book because Maytera Marble had posed for Molpe."  (Tor hardback
page 228)

>From this unambiguous statement, it is clear that Marble (not Rose) posed for
the painting.  The resolution of the puzzle is to realize that it wasn't
*really* Marble posing for the painting but Magnesia, her former and discarded
personality.  When maid-of-all-work Magnesia became Maytera Marble, she put away
her old life entirely.  Thus, when she said that she had posed for the painting,
that was a slip-up.  Magnesia, not Marble, had posed for that painting.  Thus,
to maintain the lie that she was Maytera Marble, she had to "confess" the lie
she told about the painting.  Marble felt "flattered" by the postulant's
admiration because she was the one who actually posed.

I think this might also explain why Marble keeps repeatedly confessing this
"lie" to Maytera Betel.  I don't recall if this is directly addressed in the
text, but if Magnesia's reason for becoming Maytera Marble is because she was in
some kind of trouble and needed to hide, then I think you are correct in your
guess that it was upon becoming a maytera that Magnesia got rid of her
human-looking face.  If that is the case -- that Magnesia was hiding from
something and that Betel was instrumental in keeping her hid -- then Betel would
have gone to great lengths to ensure that Magnesia stayed hidden, since Betel
was an "accomplice" as it were.  And if Betel found out that Marble had admitted
to a postulant that she had posed as Molpe in the painting, Betel might very
well have been distraught at Marble's clumsiness, and to make sure Marble didn't
suffer any more bouts of clumsiness, she kept reminding her of her slip-up,
forcing Marble to confess again and again so that the point would be hammered
home that she could not afford any more such mistakes.

If all of this is true, it's even more interesting to think of Betel's efforts
to conceal Patera Pike's child from him, isn't it?  It makes Betel a very
interesting off-stage character, and not an entirely likeable one.  It seems
that both Rose and Marble were "hidden" in some sense by Betel, and that she
went to great lengths -- even cruel lengths -- to make sure her secretes stayed
secret.  It also raises the question of whether Magnesia was hidden because she
knew of Rose's pregnancy.  I can't think of a reason why this would necessitate
her going into hiding, though, so that might not be a very good guess.

Charles

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Roy,
There's a very short quote in ON BLUE'S WATERS that mentions the
painting, and I thought you might like to consider it.  The scene
is not too long after Krait has saved Horn from the pit.  They have
gone back to the sloop and Krait has offered to help Horn find Seawrack,
and while they are sailing out of the little bay in which the sloop was
moored, Horn begins addressing the extra powers of sight that he has acquired
-- how he sees everything as if it (and he) were in a painting.  This
reminds him of the paintings in the cenoby, and he writes, "You [Nettle]
told me about the beautiful pictures upstairs in the cenoby and I put them
in our book because Maytera Marble had posed for Molpe."  (Tor hardback
page 228)
>From this unambiguous statement, it is clear that Marble (not Rose)
posed for the painting.  The resolution of the puzzle is to realize
that it wasn't *really* Marble posing for the painting but Magnesia, her
former and discarded personality.  When maid-of-all-work Magnesia
became Maytera Marble, she put away her old life entirely.  Thus,
when she said that she had posed for the painting, that was a slip-up. 
Magnesia, not Marble, had posed for that painting.  Thus, to maintain
the lie that she was Maytera Marble, she had to "confess" the lie she told
about the painting.  Marble felt "flattered" by the postulant's admiration
because she was the one who actually posed.
I think this might also explain why Marble keeps repeatedly confessing
this "lie" to Maytera Betel.  I don't recall if this is directly addressed
in the text, but if Magnesia's reason for becoming Maytera Marble is because
she was in some kind of trouble and needed to hide, then I think you are
correct in your guess that it was upon becoming a maytera that Magnesia
got rid of her human-looking face.  If that is the case -- that Magnesia
was hiding from something and that Betel was instrumental in keeping her
hid -- then Betel would have gone to great lengths to ensure that Magnesia
stayed hidden, since Betel was an "accomplice" as it were.  And if
Betel found out that Marble had admitted to a postulant that she had posed
as Molpe in the painting, Betel might very well have been distraught at
Marble's clumsiness, and to make sure Marble didn't suffer any more bouts
of clumsiness, she kept reminding her of her slip-up, forcing Marble to
confess again and again so that the point would be hammered home that she
could not afford any more such mistakes.
If all of this is true, it's even more interesting to think of Betel's
efforts to conceal Patera Pike's child from him, isn't it?  It makes
Betel a very interesting off-stage character, and not an entirely likeable
one.  It seems that both Rose and Marble were "hidden" in some sense
by Betel, and that she went to great lengths -- even cruel lengths -- to
make sure her secretes stayed secret.  It also raises the question
of whether Magnesia was hidden because she knew of Rose's pregnancy. 
I can't think of a reason why this would necessitate her going into hiding,
though, so that might not be a very good guess.
Charles

"Roy C. Lackey" wrote:
About that painting. On her second trip to the
attic (LS3, 8) she was
thinking about the painting on the wall of the second-floor hallway
of the
cenoby, the one of Molpe blessing an old woman and some doves.
She says she
had lied when she told a postulant once that she had posed as Molpe,
"almost
the only lie she had ever told". Yet she seems to have a memory
of having
posed for that painting. At any rate, she goes on to think she
"could not
have been a sibyl then, only the sibyls' maid". In other words,
she was
still just the maid at the time that picture was painted.
Marble did not pose for it; that was a lie, as she confessed. She
told the
lie because she wanted, as an old woman will who was once beautiful,
the
young postulant to understand that she had once been young, too;
that
somewhere inside she was still "that girl". Wolfe is particularly
tricky
about that painting, mingling memories and misdirecting the reader.
The
memory of having posed comes from Rose, evidently, despite the
comments
about chems making better models. Here is the relevant passage:
    "She [Marble] could not have been a sibyl then,
only the sibyls' maid;
but the artist had been a relative of the Senior Sibyl's, who had
agreed to
let her [Rose] pose. Chems could hold a pose much longer than bios.
All
artists, he had said, used chems when they could, although he had
used his
mother for the old woman because chems never looked old. . . .
    "She smiled at that, tilting her head far back
and to the right. The
hinges, then the other track.
    "He had given them the picture when it was done."
That picture, then, was painted more than fifty years ago, when
Marble still
had her girlish looks and Rose was a relatively young, attractive,
slender
sibyl. Marble's lie eventually became the truth. A single word
in the
following quote is all that gives me any reason to doubt this explication
of
that picture: "A chubby postulant whose name she could not recall
had
admired it; and she, thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble, flattered,
had said
that she had posed for Molpe." How and why should Marble have felt
"flattered" if it was a lie? If it wasn't a lie, why would she
repeatedly
confess it to Betel at each shriving, such false confessions themselves
constituting more lies? Remember, that lie was told many years
before Marble
acquired some of Rose's parts and personality.
Fifty-odd years ago, Rose was close to forty. Both Marble and Rose
have
independent memories of Maytera Betel when each was a sibyl; Marble
of
confessing over and over to her for the lie about posing for the
painting,
Rose of Betel's help with her pregnancy. When Marble told that
lie she was,
by her own account, "thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble". So, since
Rose
remembers Marble when she was "that girl", either Marble suffered
a rather
precipitous breakdown of her girlish facade, or she was made to
give it up,
possibly as a condition of teaching. It wouldn't do to have a teacher
who
looked like a girl herself.
Silk also saw that painting when he went into the cenoby to fetch
Marble
another habit. He noted that the Molpe painting was one of "three
faded
pictures" . (LS3, 4) Would a painting have faded noticeably in
Rose's
lifetime? Or is the fading more consistent with a period of 184
years?
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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 16:50:15 +0000

>agree with you, but I don't understand why you are bringing it up.

Sorry to be confusing. I brought it up because that's the way the text has
it. Marble made the second trip (on the same day as the first, iirc) for two
reasons; to lubricate the attic entrance to facilitate any future entry, and
to gain access to the roof to get a better look at the airship. The day Rose
died, Marble's CPU was overheating badly and she was having trouble climbing
stairs. She is thrilled with the new-found zest she acquired when she took
Rose's used parts. After she got the sticking attic steps down she thought:

    "I'll oil this, she resolved. I don't care if there isn't any oil. I'll
cut up some fat from that bull and boil it, and skim off the grease and
strain it, and use that. Because this _isn't_ the last time. It is _not_.
    "She trotted up the folding steps in an energetic flurry of black
bombazine.
    "Just look how good my leg is! Praise to you, Great Pas!"

She left the attic stairs down so she could lubricate them later. Later,
after lubricating the mechanism, she made her second trip to the attic, and
it was then that she changed the search word from trunk to footlocker. The
184 years ago bit is on the page prior to the above quote.

    "Maytera Marble tried to decide how long it had been since she had done
this, entering _roof_, and when that evoked only a flood of dripping
ceilings and soaked carpets, _attic_.
    "A hundred and eighty-four years ago.
    "She could scarcely believe it--did not wish to believe it. A graceful
girl with laughing eyes and industrious hands had climbed this same stair,
as she still did a score of times every day, walked along this hall, and
halted beneath this odd-looking door overhead, reaching up with a tool that
had been lost now for more than a century."

>amount of two centuries!).

When Marble was pressed into teaching only two sibyls were then living, fat
Betel and fortyish Rose. Bio sibyls don't perform manual labor; there's no
way either of those women carried a trunk up to the attic for a chem maid,
and Pike couldn't enter the cenoby. Marble put that trunk up there.

As for the 184 vs. 50 year spans, I can't explain it. But Marble is a
machine; her memory consists of computer files. Those files might get
overwritten or she might lose access to them, but the information in her
files (like the list of sibyls and the list of dresses) either exists or it
doesn't. If the file(s) containing her memory of 184 years ago contains
erroneous data, _how did it get there_?

-Roy

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From: Charles Reed <cmreed at link.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:20:10 +0000

> and Pike couldn't enter the cenoby. Marble put that trunk up there.

Not necessarily.  Based on the theory that I put forth in my last post, Betel
was involved in "hiding" maid-of-all-work Magnesia as Maytera Marble.  In such
circumstances, I can easily see how Betel "took care of" Magnesia's old things.
Either Betel climbed into the attic to hide the trunk or she had someone else do
it -- presumably Rose.

To me, the only thing that's still unresolved about the whole issue is this:  If
Magnesia used to go up and down the attic steps several times a day during her
cleaning duties, and she stopped doing that 184 years ago, and she didn't become
Maytera Marble until some 50-odd years ago (call it 54 years ago), what was she
doing during the intervening 130 years?

Charles

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:07:47 +0000

It's too complex to explain here, but for now I'll give the answer and toss
out a few of the dots for you to connect.

Marble lied about posing for the picture. It was Molybdenum who posed for
it. Marble lied about posing, ostensibly (the sheerest of facades) to
protect Betel. She, of course told Betel during shriving that she did it to
hide the fact that Molydenum had been dismantled and her parts given to
Betel. If Marble was at the cenoby at the time, she was already too worn out
for her parts to be appealing

The description of Marble becoming a teacher is pied with the story of Moly
agreeing to sacrifice herself for Betel. It is told in the presence of
Hammerstone and Marble pies the story to fool him and Silk simultaneously.
Silk sees the story doesn't add up as he always does eventually. Notice how
carefully she selects her words at the end of LS4, 11:
"...and so Maytera called - called upon..."
Hammerstone explained, 'She drafted Moly'.
'Upon me...I put my hand on the Writings and promised, and Maytera and
Maytera Rose witnessed it and kissed me, and--and I got new clothes."

Extracted like this it is obvious that she finds it difficult to call Betel
by name. Moly's identity is greatly merged with Betel's.

But Marble continued to vindictively bring up her lie during shriving before
Betel - reminding Betel that there used to be a pretty maid at the cenoby.
Later, Rose inherited the parts from Betel - and she treated Marble with
contempt to "de-humanize" her, because otherwise it she would be a party to
murder. Finally the parts came to Marble. Marble's reference to the ivory
(animal) beads on a silver (metal) chain she inherited from Betel (LS4, 11)
was a hint that she had inherited much more from her.

The chems had no need to enter the attic very often since it seems to have
only been used to store the unwanted belongings of deceased sibyls. Perhaps
chem maids weren't ordinarily admitted there for that reason. The attic also
kept the belongings of poor Moly. The trunk belonged to Moly. She didn't
recognize it because it had rusted in the attic after all those years. But
Marble/Moly is certain that it NEVER belonged to any sibyl at the cenoby,
because it had belonged to a maid there. Marble's opening of the trunk is
not recorded but she certainly did. And she read the diary and
re-familiarized herself with her "former" life.

Still a mystery to me is whether Betel had the parts only for a short while
before dying and so the parts did not have time to absorb Betel's
personality before she died, OR was the crotchety bitter crone that Rose
became, her inheritance from Betel? Do Betel's memories surface in Marble as
do Rose's and Moly's?

Whatever, Marble contained within herself Magnesia, Rose, and Molydenum and
her memories after Rose's death are a mixture of those.

Crush

--

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:36:40 +0000

Charles Reed writes:

[snip]
>admiration because she was the one who actually posed.

I don't know that the statement in OBW can be construed as
"unambiguous"--Horn and Nettle were the source for both sets of data, after
all. That sort of technical hairsplitting--which name she was using at the
time of the lie--might impress a lawyer, but are the gods from whom she
seeks absolution really that easily fooled? Marble knew perfectly well that
her original name had been Magnesia, as did Betel and Rose. If it was when
she still called herself Magnesia that she posed for the painting, then she
didn't lie to the postulant, regardless of what the postulant thought about
it. At the worst it was a misapprehension, not a lie.

>some kind of trouble and needed to hide,

Magnesia wasn't trying to hide; she became a sibyl because parents were
complaining that their children were now being taught by a laywoman. _All_
women take a new name when they become sibyls.

> then I think you are correct in your
efforts
>her going into hiding, though, so that might not be a very good guess.

I don't see how Magnesia could have failed to know of Rose's pregnancy; not
even a chem could have been that ignorant of human physiology. Magnesia
would have seen pregnant mothers all the time at the school. In any event,
she was at the cenoby both before and after Rose's pregnancy.

-Roy

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From: Charles Reed <cmreed at link.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:52:27 +0000

"Roy C. Lackey" wrote:

> Charles Reed writes:
>
> [snip]
> >This reminds him of the paintings in the cenoby, and he writes, "You
> >[Nettle] told me about the beautiful pictures upstairs in the cenoby
> >and I put them in our book because Maytera Marble had posed for Molpe."
> >(Tor hardback page 228)
> >
> >posed for the painting.
> all.

Personally, I think that's as unambiguous as Gene Wolfe gets.  It seems like
there are at least a few instances where some issue that has been confusing in a
previous book gets a clear-cut statement of fact in a follow-up book, especially
issues that GW didn't intend to be ambiguous.  So, for my two cents, if Horn
states flat-out that Marble posed for that painting, then I tend to accept such
a statement at face value.

> ...Magnesia wasn't trying to hide; she became a sibyl because parents were

I stand corrected.  Sometimes I get a germ of an idea and then get carried away
with it.  I've looked through my books and can find no evidence that Magnesia
became Maytera Marble in order to "hide" from something.  And since that appears
to be the case, then my previous explanation of Marble's reasons for confessing
this lie makes no sense.  Please pardon my over-enthusiastic theorizing. :-)

> she was at the cenoby both before and after Rose's pregnancy.

Not that it's really relevant (since my "theory" was justifiably shot down), but
Patera Pike was kept in the dark about Rose's pregnancy, so it's at least
conceivable that Magnesia/Marble could also have been kept in the dark about
it.  I don't recall that bit about Magnesia being pressed into service because
the parents were upset at having their kids taught by a laywoman, however.  Do
you recall where that is?

At the very least, however, Rose's pregnancy and Magnesia's transformation into
Maytera Marble seem to be related, if only because they happened around the same
time (50+ years ago).  And it's not unreasonable to assume that they are
directly related:  Rose, being pregnant and needing to hide that fact from
Patera Pike would not be able to do a whole lot of teaching, which would give
rise to the need for a substitute.  Magnesia knew how to write, how to
calculate, and was already employed at the manteion, so she was a reasonable and
cost-effective solution.

NOW TO THE GOOD STUFF:

I think I've finally worked out the solution of the painting, but it's rather
convoluted.  Maybe this theory will be shot down as well, but I actually think
this one hangs together.  Please read the whole sequence before you pronounce it
horse-hockey:

1. While still the sibyls' maid, MAGNESIA posed for the painting.

2. Perhaps ROSE is alive at the time the picture is painted, but perhaps not --
it doesn't really matter.  What does matter is that at some point
MAGNESIA/MARBLE tells ROSE that she had posed for the painting.

3. One day a chubby postulant was standing with MAYTERA ROSE, admiring the
painting, when Rose claims that she had been the one to pose as Molpe.  There
might be several reasons for this lie, one of which I'll put forward
momentarily.  Whatever the reason, she lied and claimed that she was the one who
had posed.  The postulant was absolutely incredulous -- even openly shocked at
what she was hearing -- either because she couldn't see any resemblance between
Rose and the beautiful girl in the picture, or because she already knew who the
real model had been.  My personal opinion about why ROSE lied is that when this
lie was told, MARBLE was at least within earshot and might have been standing
right next to ROSE and her postulant, and that ROSE told the lie knowing that
MARBLE would overhear it.  (Now that's pretty damn cold.)

4. Even if not very likeable as a person, Rose is a very devout woman.  She
feels terrible about the cruelty of this particular lie and confesses it to
Maytera Betel at every shriving.

5. Rose dies and some of her parts get incorporated into MAYTERA MARBLE.

6. When going up to the attic one day to get a better look at the airship,
MAYTERA MARBLE notices the painting and some very bizarre memories are evoked.
She remembers (as MAGNESIA) posing for the painting while still a maid.  She
also remembers (as ROSE) having lied to a postulant about posing for the
painting, as well as ROSE'S subsequent confessions.  But her identity is so
confused -- especially so soon after incorporating her new parts and new
memories -- that she begins mixing things together.  That's how we get a
sentence like this:  "A chubby postulant whose name she could not recall had
admired it; and she, thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble, flattered, had said
that she had posed for Molpe."  She recalls ROSE'S memories of having lied and
*also* recalls MARBLE'S feelings at the time -- first the feeling of being
flattered by the postulant's praise and then the feelings (created by the lie)
of being thin, faceless, and old.

What do you think?

Charles

--

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:14:00 +0000

Charles Reed wrote:
>I don't recall that bit about Magnesia being pressed into service
because
>you recall where that is?

EXODUS, 232

>calculate, and was already employed at the manteion, so she was a
reasonable and

The only clue I'm aware of that may pertain is a left-handed one, and may
just be a minor mistake by Wolfe. It's in chapter 4 of CALDE, where
Rose-in-Marble is telling Silk about her pregnancy.

    "We [Betel and Rose] pretended I was becoming fat, too. She used to
tease me about it, and our sibs believed her."

It's the word "sibs". When Marble became a teacher, the only living sibyls
were Betel and Rose, neither of whom can be one of the sibs in the quote,
obviously. Then Marble became a sibyl. That's still just one sib to fool.
So, either at least two sibyls died in a relatively short time span--while
Rose was demonstrably pregnant--or the cenoby acquired at least one new
sibyl not too long after Marble became one. The latter choice is the more
probable, and we know that the cenoby did in fact have at least one more
sibyl after Marble--Mockorange, who was Mint's preceptress.

>NOW TO THE GOOD STUFF:

[snip of theory]

>What do you think?

Well, I can't tell you that you're wrong, but it requires a bit of
supposing. It would be difficult to prove from the text--but then, so do a
lot of other theories around here. If Wolfe hadn't included that part about
"she, thin, faceless, old Maytera Marble" in that sentence, it would be a
lot easier to believe that it was actually Rose who had lied to the
postulant. That bothers me. We know that Marble lies occasionally, but I
can't think of a specific incidence where Rose does so.

I don't pretend to have the answer to the painting puzzle, but it is a
puzzle, and should be solvable from the text. I just don't know.

-Roy

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