{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3464", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3464, "subject": "Pinocchio vs. the Tin Man", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-09-25T17:28:31+00:00", "last": "2002-09-26T01:32:18+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-09-25T17:28:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pinocchio vs. the Tin Man", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Weber taunts:\nWouldn't Jonas be a case of exactly that?\n\nCrush goes for the bait:\nYep. He would, among others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what is going on with Jonas, what he means by his intent to\nbecome repaired (presumably it means he wants to become fully biological so\nas to be better suited for Jolenta). I guess it all resolves this way:\nsince Severian heard the utterance and saw Jonas go into the mirror, the\nClaw heard it too, so that later on at that point in Severian's life when\nhe really needed a friend, yet all there was at hand was a corpse, then the\nClaw drew down the Jonas software from the borderland between Briah and\nYesod, installed it in the reanimated corpse, and thereby solved two wishes\nwith one snappy miracle.\n\nIn any event, the transition from non-biological to biological is the\nPinocchio scenario. Which is interesting because we tend to talk about\nJonas as being the posterboy for the opposite, the Tin Man of Oz (a\nbiological made non-biological). Or Jonas as the Steadfast Tin Soldier\n(crippled; in love with a woman not of his type; swallowed by fish,\ndelivered back to his first place, then cast into fiery dissolution).\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\n29 copies of \"Snake's-hands\" until OP!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-09-25T18:01:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Pinocchio vs. the Tin Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matthew Weber taunts:\nWouldn't Jonas be a case of exactly that?\n\nCrush goes for the bait:\nYep. He would, among others." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what is going on with Jonas, what he means by his intent to\nbecome repaired (presumably it means he wants to become fully biological\nso\nas to be better suited for Jolenta)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Funny, that wasn't my impression at all--I thought he wanted to become\nfully robotic--though he is in love or something with Jolenta. Can we\nimagine a prosthetic-bearing bio in love with a chem wanting to become\nfully a chem?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess it all resolves this way:\nsince Severian heard the utterance and saw Jonas go into the mirror, the\nClaw heard it too, so that later on at that point in Severian's life\nwhen\nhe really needed a friend, yet all there was at hand was a corpse, then\nthe\nClaw drew down the Jonas software from the borderland between Briah and\nYesod, installed it in the reanimated corpse, and thereby solved two\nwishes\nwith one snappy miracle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or in possibly more sinister style, the Jonas software was hanging\naround and took its opportunity.\n\nEither way, do we see Miles going through a Silk-like recapture of his\nidentity?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any event, the transition from non-biological to biological is the\nPinocchio scenario." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to mention Galatea, the Bicentennial Man, and Severian's brush-\ninto-squirrel dream. Maybe above all, the amazing fact that we Homo\nsapiens work by the laws of physics and consequently chemistry; we're\nliterally chems." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which is interesting because we tend to talk about\nJonas as being the posterboy for the opposite, the Tin Man of Oz (a\nbiological made non-biological). Or Jonas as the Steadfast Tin Soldier\n(crippled; in love with a woman not of his type; swallowed by fish,\ndelivered back to his first place, then cast into fiery dissolution)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where's that from?\n\nThanks for the comment on _Michaelmas_, by the way. I own that book,\nbut I never made any of those connections!\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-09-25T19:13:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Pinocchio vs. the Tin Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman quoting mantis:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure what is going on with Jonas, what he means by his intent to\nbecome repaired (presumably it means he wants to become fully biological\nso\nas to be better suited for Jolenta)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Funny, that wasn't my impression at all--I thought he wanted to become\nfully robotic--though he is in love or something with Jolenta." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree completely with Jerry and have said so before. Jonas loathed his bio\nreplacement parts. When he said he would come back for Jolenta when he had\nbeen repaired, when he was sane and whole, he meant when proper repairs had\nbeen made and he was quit of his bio parts. The proof is on the last page of\nchapter XVI of CLAW:\n\n-------------\n \"We crashed. It had been so long, on Urth, that there was no port when\nwe returned, no dock. Afterward my hand was gone, and my face. My shipmates\nrepaired me as well as they could, but there were no parts anymore, only\nbiological material.\" With the steel hand I had always thought scarcely more\nthan a hook, he picked up the hand of muscle and bone as a man might lift a\nbit of filth to cast it away.\"\n------------\n\nAll the more reason to wonder what he wanted with Jolenta.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-09-25T22:03:52+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Pinocchio vs. the Tin Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nCan we imagine a prosthetic-bearing bio in love with a chem wanting to\nbecome fully a chem?\n\nResponse:\nIt is not a two-way street. It is the most natural of inclinations to prefer\nthings that are more authentic; to want to BE more authentic. Religious\napologist have declared in once sense or another that the *proper* urge to\nworship the Divine comes from the knowledge that we are made in his image.\n\nBy the same token, Pinocchio, the Tin Man, and Data (of Star Trek) all want\nto become \"real\" not just the semblance of reality. Lemur disparaged the\nMainframe gods as \"ghosts\" not because he believed in life after death but\nbecause he didn't - he would assert that they (and also himself, to his own\ndismay) were only a semblance of the \"real\" persons - actually Kypris\nsuggests this understanding of herself as well.\n\nSo it IS logical that a chem would want to become human. It is NOT logical\nthat a god would. The reasons for Jonas' disparagement of human parts and\nPotto's talus' revulsion toward human \"filth\" are another subject but it's\nnot hard to see why they might feel that way even if they would become human\nif given the opportunity - and that one of the parallels is people who scorn\n\"holy\" relics.\n\nStill, there IS Mr. Million (5HoC) who chose (with regret) to become a\nrobot.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-09-26T01:32:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Pinocchio vs. the Tin Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 25 Sep 2002, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFunny, that wasn't my impression at all--I thought he wanted to become\nfully robotic--though he is in love or something with Jolenta. Can we\nimagine a prosthetic-bearing bio in love with a chem wanting to become\nfully a chem?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Forget about the in love part, I think there are plenty of people who\nwould choose a super-strong, nigh-immortal robot body over a frail\nbiological one, even if one had to give up various human pleasures and\nexpereiences.\n\nGreg Egan's _Diaspora_ imagines a future in which some people are\nbio-modified, some are downloaded into and live in various \"Mainframes,\"\nand some live with their minds downloaded into robot bodies.\n\nSo yes, some of us can imagine it.\n\n\t-- M." } ] } ] }