{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3468", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3468, "subject": "living dolls", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-09-26T19:23:55+00:00", "last": "2002-09-28T00:47:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-09-26T19:23:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) living dolls", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IMHO the real root is the nursery/toy/steadfast tin solder vibe seen well\nin \"The War Beneath The Tree\".\n\nAs I reflect, it seems to me that all Wolfe's artificial people- from the\nchems of the Long Sun, through the adult-sized puppets of , through Mr Million and the Horars (note name of tank), are, more\nthan anything else, to be understood as walking *toys*.\n\nGods' toys, maybe. But essentially toys.\n\nHence their sexual impotence.\n\nToys have nothing between their legs, and neither do robots, however\n\"superior\" they may be in other ways.\n\nIn the Long Sun books this is hypostatised into the difficulty the Chems\nhave in reproducing, by their non-sexual, but plausible, means.\n\nThere is no reason why they should have this difficulty - it could be\narranged otherwise - but they must have it, because they are toys, and toys\ndo not have babies.\n\n\n\nAnd also this is the key to their personal characteristics and the odd\nlimitations of the way Wolfe uses them.\n\nStop thinking of them as robots.\n\nThey are dolls! Big grown-up dolls!,\n\nNurse and housemaid dolls for the female chems, soldier dolls for the male\nones.\n\n\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nTo: \nSent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 7:43 PM\n\nThe Tin Woodman may have been an *inspiration* to Wolfe's images of\nsynthetic people, but can the connection be drawn any more tightly?\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-09-26T19:55:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) living dolls", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hartshorn wrote about living dolls:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I reflect, it seems to me that all Wolfe's artificial people- from the\nchems of the Long Sun, through the adult-sized puppets of , through Mr Million and the Horars (note name of tank), are, more\nthan anything else, to be understood as walking *toys*." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The story whose name he fogot might be:\n\n\"The Toy Theater\" (most likely)\n\"It's Very Clean\" (less likely)\n\nName of tank, noted: Pinocchio.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-09-27T20:49:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) living dolls", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\n\nIMHO the real root is the nursery/toy/steadfast tin solder vibe seen\nwell\nin \"The War Beneath The Tree\".\n\nAs I reflect, it seems to me that all Wolfe's artificial people- from\nthe\nchems of the Long Sun, through the adult-sized puppets of , through Mr Million and the Horars (note name of tank), are,\nmore\nthan anything else, to be understood as walking *toys*.\n\nGods' toys, maybe. But essentially toys.\n\nHence their sexual impotence.\n\nToys have nothing between their legs, and neither do robots, however\n\"superior\" they may be in other ways.\n\nIn the Long Sun books this is hypostatised into the difficulty the Chems\nhave in reproducing, by their non-sexual, but plausible, means.\n\nThere is no reason why they should have this difficulty - it could be\narranged otherwise - but they must have it, because they are toys, and\ntoys\ndo not have babies.\n\n\n\nAnd also this is the key to their personal characteristics and the odd\nlimitations of the way Wolfe uses them.\n\nStop thinking of them as robots.\n\nThey are dolls! Big grown-up dolls!,\n\nNurse and housemaid dolls for the female chems, soldier dolls for the\nmale ones." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're right that this is how their creators think of them.\nI don't think Severian and Silk think of them as toys at all.\n\nAs for how we should think of them, I think you're right that in some\nartistic sense they're connected with various fictional toys you and\nothers have mentioned. But I think we're supposed to see them as\nequivalent to humans (and Neighbors), just as we're supposed to see\nthe human characters as humans and not, though Severian remarks people\noften do, see them as clients.\n\nYou can certainly add Dr. Talos to your list, by the way. What about\nthe homunculus in _Citadel_? Or the aquastors and Hierodules?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-09-28T00:47:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) living dolls", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jerry Friedman\" \n\nI think you're right that this is how their creators think of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is their creator, of course . . . . .." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for how we should think of them, I think you're right that in some\nartistic sense they're connected with various fictional toys you and\nothers have mentioned. But I think we're supposed to see them as\nequivalent to humans (and Neighbors), just as we're supposed to see\nthe human characters as humans and not, though Severian remarks people\noften do, see them as clients." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. When I read Wolfe, sometimes I feel I am in there, rendered into\nsomething . . . . . . not a doll, but a human character, but yet as much\npart of his world as if I was written by him" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You can certainly add Dr. Talos to your list, by the way. What about\nthe homunculus in _Citadel_? Or the aquastors and Hierodules?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's complex. The gods see these dolls, as dolls only. But how does God\nsee us?\n\nWhere is the division between toy, doll, robot, domestic animal,\nunderperson, child, created being, and beloved and redeemed Child, to be\ndrawn?\n\n\nSo Wolfe tells us - and Smith, too, in his way.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] } ] }