Subject: (urth) PEACE as Faust

From: StoneOx17 <stoneox17 at aol.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 13:32:25 +0000

A while ago, I read Robert Borski's essay, "The Devil his Due," which makes 
the connection of Peace with Faust, and identifies Weer as the devil.  I 
think that Borski often notices interesting things in Wolfe's writing, 
although he doesn't always draw the right conclusions from them, and I think 
that's the case here.  I can't accept Weer as the devil, but the essay did 
lead me to think about identifying Julius with the devil, and that led me to 
an interesting interpretation of the banshee story, which I posted here a few 
weeks ago.  Shortly after that, an image suddenly hit me that connects Peace 
to Faust.  The image is the one at the end of many versions of Faust, with 
the devil dragging Faust down to hell as Margrete looks down from Heaven (or 
ascends to Heaven) and prays for him to be saved. The connection, of course, 
is to the end of the book, where, while Aunt Olivia calls Weer on the 
intercom, Weer makes the fatal error of looking to the enchanted headrest of 
the Chinese philosopher (and thus reliving his afterlife) rather than praying 
to Jesus for salvation.   So we have the identification of Olivia with 
Margrete, and Weer with Faust.  More on this identification later.

Is this really the right interpretation of the ending, leaving the ghost of 
Weer caught eternally in purgatory, while Olivia has ascended to heaven?  It 
seems right to me, but I have only a few pieces of evidence for this:

First, when she's gathering information about the Chinese egg, Olivia 
convinces herself that, besides the Lorn's egg showing the scenes from the 
Resurrection, there is also a matching egg showing the Ascension, and she 
writes to a New York museum asking about it.  A literal reading of this 
raises some bewildering questions (how does she draw this conclusion before 
she's even seen the egg?), but I believe this is intended to be read 
metaphorically: Weer has been resurrected as a ghost, but Olivia has not only 
been resurrected but has also subsequently ascended to heaven.  

Next, at the end of the Chinese philosopher's story, we find the passage:
"Fool!" the old man exclaimed.  "Do you not recognize me?  I have granted 
your heart's desire, and for it I receive your ingratitude!"  
Is this not also a plausible response to somebody who has turned down the 
offer of eternal life?

Finally, the end of Peace occurs right after Dan French's story of the geese 
of Loch Conn, which really should have served as a hint to Weer: "... And in 
time, men, too, will pass, as every man who lives long learns in his own 
body.  But Jesus Christ saves all."

Thinking about it some more, I believe that that there are multiple 
identifications of characters in Peace with those in Faust.  We have to 
identify both Margaret and Olivia with Margrete, both Weer and Julius with 
Faust, and both Julius and Mr. Tilly with the devil.  So we have Mr. Tilly 
passing his (carny) knowledge to Julius, who then passes the (secret?) 
formula for turning lead into gold (oops, I mean potatoes into imitation 
frozen orange juice) on to Weer.  From Charles Turner's letter, it's not 
clear whether the carny medicines are really a benefit for their recipients.  
And as Borski notes, in the long run the factory certainly has an evil effect 
on the surrounding farms.  

-- Stone Ox

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 19:27:27 +0000

>Weer caught eternally in purgatory, while Olivia has ascended to
heaven?

I agree that Weer isn't El Diablo. But how is it that Olivia gets to go
to heaven? She didn't strike me as even a nice person, much less as
worthy of eternal reward. Before marriage she was a fornicator;
afterwards an adulteress.

-Roy

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 20:40:28 +0000

Roy C. wrote ...

> I agree that Weer isn't El Diablo. But how is it that Olivia 
> gets to go to heaven? 

The usual method is called "repentance."

> She didn't strike me as even a nice person, much less as

Has nothing to do with the case -- the whole point (well, _a_
major point) of Christianity in general, and Catholicism in 
particular, is that _everyone_ is a sinner, but that doesn't 
stop you from being saved -- in fact it's why you need to be 
saved. And, because everyone's a sinner, nobody is "worse" than 
anyone else. So you just sort of have to accept what you are, be
sorry for what you've done, and try to do better with God's help, 
and that's pretty much the deal. So being "not nice," "a 
fornicator," "an adulteress" (thank you for using these terms so
accurately, btw) really wouldn't stop her. Might mean some 
Purgatory, but that's a highly-undefined term.

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From: StoneOx17 <stoneox17 at aol.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 14:45:21 +0000

blattid ("Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <ddanehy at siebel.com>) writes

> The usual method is called "repentance."

And this also touches on the question of whether Weer gets into 
heaven.  In his reminiscences, Weer hasn't even admitted some of
his major sins--the cold room prank, whatever happened with Lois--
let alone repented of them.

--Stone Ox

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 18:41:13 +0000

>The usual method is called "repentance."

And the textual evidence for this is . . . nonexistent.

mantis also wrote:

>P.S.  Olivia an adultress?  Roy, you surprise me again!  I had not
thought
>such a thing was in your no-nonsense reading of PEACE . . . I hesitate
to
>even guess who the party or parties might be, nevermind the complicated
>ramifications.  Please tell!

The following quote happens to address both Blattid's "repentance" issue
and mantis's query. The context is the point in PEACE where Olivia
interrupts Smart's Tilly tale to suggest it's time for Den to go to bed.
It is the only place in the text where the subject of repentance and
Olivia comes up, and it makes clear the depths of her sincerity and
religiosity:

    "My aunt Olivia was not serious. She belonged to that school which
recognizes the just demands of duty by ritual observance, and had
ordered me to bed in exactly the spirit in which she would later--when
she was Mrs. Smart--repent three or four times a year of her casual
connection with Professor Peacock and her occasional nights with Mr.
Macafee." (145, Berkley)

And, of course, Den didn't go to bed then.

>anyone else.

So, Herr Hitler and Mother Theresa were equal in God's eyes; what they
did in their lives had no bearing on their eternal fate. Interesting. So
long as Hitler had the presence of mind to say "I'm sorry" before he
died in that bunker, St. Peter had no choice but to open up the Pearly
Gates and let him in. I hope Mother Theresa wasn't caught unawares when
she died, that she wasn't having a bad day, lest . . . but I digress.

And the "meritorious acts" ordered by an augur in the wake of a shriving
counted for nothing. And Silk, observing Marble's joyful reaction to the
working eye he brought her, and feeling warm and fuzzy about it himself,
must have been suffering from one of Dr. Crane's cerebral accidents when
he had the presumption to write of some day standing before his Maker: "
. . . but if ever a time comes when I must justify my existence--when I
must account for the space I have occupied, the food I have eaten, and
the air I have breathed--I will tell about Maytera's eye first of all. I
doubt that I will have to tell anything else." (RTTW, 307)

I don't want to get into another theological conflict; I cede you the
high ground. But you can't tell me, so far as Wolfe's religious beliefs
can be inferred from his work, that he believes the acts of an
individual in life are not weighed in the final balance, regardless of
technical conformity to Christian/Catholic dogma.

-Roy

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 20:15:07 +0000

Let me see if I've got you right:

At 08:32 AM 10/4/2002, Stone Ox wrote:

>  Shortly after that, an image suddenly hit me that connects Peace
>the devil dragging Faust down to hell as Margrete looks down from Heaven 
>(or ascends to Heaven) and prays for him to be saved. The connection, of 
>course, is to the end of the book, where, while Aunt Olivia calls Weer on the

snip

>Is this not also a plausible response to somebody who has turned down the

         So, tell me: Weer is Faust. He has been granted his heart's desire 
for an eternal life, and he has it. He is doomed to walk through his life 
over and over forever. He's not in purgatory, but hell. Is that it?

Nutria

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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 20:03:55 +0000

forgotten that couch.  Apologies to Roy.

=mantis=

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From: StoneOx17 <stoneox17 at aol.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:19:37 +0000

Nutria wrote

snip

> over and over forever. He's not in purgatory, but hell. Is that it?

Essentially, that's it.  I left out the next line in the Chinese 
philosopher's 
story, which is: "And with that he [the old man] picked up the teakettle 
and dashed the boiling contents into the face of the young man ...";
this could symbolize the casting of the young man into hell.

There are some things I am quite certain of:  I believe that Weer would have
had a genuine chance to ascend to heaven if he had understood the 
significance of the Irish story of the geese.  I also believe that at the end 
of 
the book, he returns to relive his afterlife, as in the Chinese pillow story. 
 I 
am less certain of this, but I think the second and subsequent times, he is 
in hell rather than purgatory, although it may be that these times, he still 
has a chance to repent of his sins and reach heaven, but given that he didn't 
do this the previous times, he becomes less and less likely to in subsequent 
rounds.  As Robert Borski observed, Gold writes, in Morryster's Marvells
of Science, "Heaven ... (like Hell) repeats itself over and over again, always
different and yet always the same."  This is somewhat similar to Sartre's
"Huis Clos," where hell is a room with three people in it, the door to which
is open exactly when none of the three people want to leave.  

In a different posting, Roy C. quoted and wrote ...
> And the textual evidence for this is . . . nonexistent.

Well, very thin.  First, I firmly believe that Weer had a genuine opportunity 
to reach heaven, and I don't think Olivia's sins are any worse than Weer's. 
Second,  there is the point that Aunt Olivia is looking for the ascenscion 
egg.  In Christian theology, looking is half the battle: "Seek, and ye shall 
find."   Finally, there's the parallel with Faust, and the question of where 
at the end, Olivia is speaking to him from (if her voice isn't yet another 
spectre conjured from Weer's imagination).  I do agree with Roy that it's 
very unlikely that Olivia died in a state of grace, so she would have had to 
spend some time as a ghost in Purgatory, as well, but I see no reason
she shouldn't have repented of her sins there.  

--Stone Ox

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 15:43:36 +0000

Off topic, but not totally; it goes to the purgatorial interpretation
of PEACE...

Roy C. wrote:
> I don't want to get into another theological conflict; I cede 
> you the high ground. But you can't tell me, so far as Wolfe's 
> religious beliefs can be inferred from his work, that he believes 
> the acts of an individual in life are not weighed in the final 
> balance, regardless of technical conformity to Christian/Catholic
> dogma.

Nor do I want for a moment to get into any such theological conflict. 
And I certainly don't want to suggest that anything less than the
whole life of the individual would be involved in that individual's
Eternal destiny. Your example of Hitler having "the presence of mind
to say 'I'm sorry' before he died in that bunker" is a classic case: 
theoretically, technically possible -- though extremely unlikely in 
the case of someone who is dying in the _manner_ Hitler did -- but 
simply saying "I'm sorry" isn't the point; it would take a moment of 
genuine _conversion_, of actually recognizing the horror of what he'd 
done and hating it. Which is a lot to happen in the moment between 
the pulling of the trigger and the bullet's smashing his brains out 
... but that bare possibility is a large part of why Catholicism
embraces the concept of _purgatory_, the idea that, well, yes, you
may well be saved from Hell, but you still have a lot of cleaning up 
(literally; purging) to do, and it may not feel very nice. Somehow
it becomes necessary to encompass both the idea that God is absolutely
just and the idea that God is merciful.

(Contrariwise, the bit about Mother Teresa having "a bad day" wouldn't 
make much difference; maybe a tiny bit of extra purgation.)

Regarding Olivia's repeated repentances ... well, I honestly don't
know. I can't judge a real person I know well; how can I judge a
fictional character I know only through an unreliable narrator?

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