{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3473", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3473, "subject": "chem slavery and bio slavery", "messages": 6, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-10-05T14:58:27+00:00", "last": "2002-10-08T23:15:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-10-05T14:58:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) chem slavery and bio slavery", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy,\n\nInteresting post on Bio bias and the potential of disguised chem slavery.\nVery meaty. The situation of the chems at points comes close to \"wage\nslavery,\" but even then, the term slave is firmly in place.\n\nMoving along . . . Once the Cargo got to the world of Blue, we know that\nreal, no mistaking it, bio slavery started up almost immediately. (IIRC it\nwas \"early bird\" colonists seizing late bird colonists.) Do you suppose\nthat the chems on the Whorl \"kept slavery alive\" and thus facilitated the\nadoption of bio slavery (that is, the colonists express a learned\ninstitution), or is bio slavery an inherent part of the human condition\nwhich would have come up even if there had been no chems (in which case\nchem slavery is a blessing in the sense that it moves bios away from bio\nslavery: allowing bios to treat bios as non-slaves)?\n\n=mantis=\n\nP.S. Olivia an adultress? Roy, you surprise me again! I had not thought\nsuch a thing was in your no-nonsense reading of PEACE . . . I hesitate to\neven guess who the party or parties might be, nevermind the complicated\nramifications. Please tell!\n\n=m=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-10-06T18:26:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) chem slavery and bio slavery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What follows was prepared yesterday; I didn't post it then because I\nthought I would leave well enough alone, that and wait to see if there\nwould be any further response to my \"Bios bias\" post. In the wake of\nmantis's post of about an hour ago about the NYRSF article, I wish I had\nsent it then. I can only say that, no, I've never even seen an issue of\nNYRSF. I'll comment about mantis's comments on the article in a separate\npost, but I will note here that, in the penultimate paragraph of\nyesterday's Bio bias post I wrote, of chems: \"But even to call them slaves\nis to grant them a status their creators never intended--you don't pay a\nmachine.\" I belong to the \"clever tools\" school of thought mantis\nmentioned. FWIW.\n\n----------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nMoving along . . . Once the Cargo got to the world of Blue, we know that\nreal, no mistaking it, bio slavery started up almost immediately. (IIRC\nit\nwas \"early bird\" colonists seizing late bird colonists.) Do you suppose\nthat the chems on the Whorl \"kept slavery alive\" and thus facilitated the\nadoption of bio slavery (that is, the colonists express a learned\ninstitution), or is bio slavery an inherent part of the human condition\nwhich would have come up even if there had been no chems (in which case\nchem slavery is a blessing in the sense that it moves bios away from bio\nslavery: allowing bios to treat bios as non-slaves)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given human history on Earth/Urth, I have to agree with slavery being \"an\ninherent part of the human condition which would have come up even if\nthere had been no chems\".\n\nI really wasn't concerned with the subject of slavery as it applied to\nchems. I just wanted to point out the logical inconsistency of trying to\nmaintain on the one hand that chems were just differently-made people, on\nan equal footing with bios, when on the other hand the way they were\nactually treated on the _Whorl_, both in Typhon's day and in Silk's,\ndemonstrated that they certainly were not equal to humans. \"Wage\" slaves,\n\nas you put it, is a reasonable description of the de facto situation of\nmost people living today. Sure, unlike 'real' slaves, people are free to\nstop working; they won't be beaten or killed for it, but they will suffer\nobvious consequences, one of which, if carried to its ultimate conclusion,\nis death. But you can't starve a chem or talus to death.\n\nIt's a given, in the text, that a talus is 'born' owing for its flesh, er,\nexistence. (And a possible nod to Philip Jose Farmer.) It is quite\nreasonable to infer the same for a chem. Hammerstone bitched about his\ncrummy life as a soldier. Why didn't he quit? Are there any retired\nsoldiers in the LS books? No. A soldier leaves the army KIA or resigned to\nthe recycling bin for any reusable parts, just like my old cars. What\nwould happen to an uppity talus that refused to work off its birth debt?\nDoes its creator 'kill' it? How would that satisfy the expense of its\ncreation? Would that be murder? Just turn the thing loose to do as it\npleased, whatever that might me? No, a talus is too stupid and dangerous\nto be left on its own. The soldiers aren't much better. Sgt. Sand\nthoughtlessly tossed an employee of Ermine's over the railing of the\nstairs.\n\nAll these thorny questions become moot when you stop thinking of taluses\nand chems as people. If a talus doesn't work right, fix it or replace it,\nwhichever is cheaper, just as you would a car or can opener. Was there any\n\"save the chems\" movement on the _Whorl_? Nope, not even by chems. Twenty\nyears after Horn left the _Whorl_, Olivine was the closest thing to a\nfemchem still living in Viron. The chems didn't follow the bios to Blue\nand Green--the subject never even came up. They had been built to last\nabout two-hundred-and-fifty years, the intended duration of the voyage of\nthe _Whorl_. Planned obsolescence. When the trip was finished, so were\nthey.\n\nIt comes down to: if chems were people, then they were slaves. A slave is\nnot equal to, in law, its master. No matter how you look at it, a chem was\nnot the equal of a bio. But it's worse for a chem because, in fact, apart\nfrom the function they were created for, their existence is meaningless.\nThey were created to serve bios. If they can't do that, they may as well\nslip, like Puff the Magic Dragon, off into a cave somewhere and shut down.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "millman at heimdallr.dyndns.org" }, "date": "2002-10-07T03:52:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) chem slavery and bio slavery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n[snip]\nBut you can't starve a\nchem or talus to death.\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may be true that you can't starve a\nchem to death, Roy, but a talus runs on\nfish-oil; deny it that, and I do think\nthat you'll succeed in starving it to\ndeath. This doesn't, of course, affect\nyour arguments, except in that it gives\na talus' owner an additional means of\ncontrol over it. Actually, I believe\nthat Swallow mentions fish-oil consump-\ntion as one of the expenses that a tal-\nus has to pay off before it can buy its\nfreedom, as would an indentured servant\nwho must pay room and board before put-\nting down money toward the contract ob-\nligations.\n\nNacre" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-10-07T14:58:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) chem slavery and bio slavery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The chems didn't follow the bios to Blue\nand Green--the subject never even came up. They had been built to last\nabout two-hundred-and-fifty years, the intended duration of the voyage\nof\nthe _Whorl_. Planned obsolescence. When the trip was finished, so were\nthey." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI generally agree with your point about how the chems were thought\nof when the _Whorl_ was created, and I thank for you for all this\nbits of evidence of prejudice on both sides. I have a quibble with\nthe above, though. Marble was taken to Blue, and isn't Cijfer a\nchem? Outside of New Viron, we may not know about some characters\nwhether they're chems or not." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-10-07T18:49:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) chem slavery and bio slavery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman quotes and writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The chems didn't follow the bios to Blue\nand Green--the subject never even came up. They had been built to last\nabout two-hundred-and-fifty years, the intended duration of the voyage\nof\nthe _Whorl_. Planned obsolescence. When the trip was finished, so were\nthey." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nI generally agree with your point about how the chems were thought\nof when the _Whorl_ was created, and I thank for you for all this\nbits of evidence of prejudice on both sides. I have a quibble with\nthe above, though. Marble was taken to Blue, and isn't Cijfer a\nchem? Outside of New Viron, we may not know about some characters\nwhether they're chems or not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marble ending up on Blue was a fluke; as Mucor's guardian she was just in\nthe right place at the right time, and being the calde's friend didn't\nhurt. Cijfer was married to Wijzer, who was a bio, so I don't think she\nwas a chem. Silkhorn traveled to several other cities and was even the\nruler of one. There is no textual evidence to indicate that any chem other\nthan Marble ever went to Blue or Green that I am aware of. Chems would\nhave been impervious to inhumi attack and near invincible as a weapon\nagainst them, which is probably why Wolfe left them on the _Whorl_.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-10-08T23:15:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) chem slavery and bio slavery", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nJerry Friedman quotes and writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The chems didn't follow the bios to Blue\nand Green--the subject never even came up. They had been built to\nlast\nabout two-hundred-and-fifty years, the intended duration of the\nvoyage\nof\nthe _Whorl_. Planned obsolescence. When the trip was finished, so\nwere\nthey." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...\n\nI generally agree with your point about how the chems were thought\nof when the _Whorl_ was created, and I thank for you for all this\nbits of evidence of prejudice on both sides. I have a quibble with\nthe above, though. Marble was taken to Blue, and isn't Cijfer a\nchem? Outside of New Viron, we may not know about some characters\nwhether they're chems or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marble ending up on Blue was a fluke; as Mucor's guardian she was just\nin\nthe right place at the right time, and being the calde's friend didn't\nhurt. Cijfer was married to Wijzer, who was a bio, so I don't think she\nwas a chem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apparently I was confused. There is an odd sentence in Ch. 7 of RttW in\nwhich Silkhorn says that if Cijfer were an inhuma, she wouldn't have\ncovered the comatose Jahlee's face or summoned a *bio*. Why \"bio\" instead\nof \"human\", unless Cijfer isn't a bio? But aside from that and possibly\nher name, there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that she's a chem, and\nher being married to Wijzer isn't the only suggestion that she's a bio. \nAnd I was mixed up about who Cijfer was and thinking of a conversation\nthat turned out not to exist.\n\nWait a second--could Wijzer be a chem? Probably not...\n\nThanks for the correction.\n...\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }