{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3481", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3481, "subject": "Gnostic Wolfe", "messages": 36, "voices": 12, "first": "2002-10-10T23:57:28+00:00", "last": "2002-11-08T08:40:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "DSG20001", "address": "dsg20001 at aol.com" }, "date": "2002-10-10T23:57:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a message dated 10/10/2002 9:43:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, \nstraight at email.unc.edu writes:\n\nIf Whorl=Garden and Pas=God, then Outsider=???\n\nThe view that religion and politics aren't subjects for polite conversation \ndoesn't appear to be a view Gene Wolfe fans can casually adopt. (Which may \naccount for a great deal of his appeal.)\n\nI don't know nearly enough about the various Gnostic doctrines, but the more \nI do learn about them, the more affinities I notice between certain of those \ndoctrines and the BotLS. \n\nI suppose readers must take Wolfe at his word when he confesses that he's an \northodox Catholic--while keeping in mind that at least some elements of his \ntheology are decidedly nonorthodox. For example, his belief in the (prior?) \nexistence of pagan gods and goddesses. \n\nI'll leave to the theologians on this remarkable list the question of whether \nWolfe's additions lean toward the heretical or merely the eccentric. But in \nappraising his works, particularly the BotLS, it might be useful to pursue in \na little more depth what appear--at first blush, anyway--to be striking \nsimilarities between Wolfe and Gnostic thought. \n\nThe online Gnostic Library (http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/library.html) \nincludes an introductory page written by a Gnostic Bishop. The above \nspeculation, \"Whorl=Garden and Pas=God, then the Outsider=???\" is addressed \nthere in a remarkable fashion: Whorl=Garden and Pas=the God of all Creation, \nthe God of the material world, the God outlined in the Old Testament, then \nthe Outsider=the Unknown God who is the true focus of Gnostic revelation.\n\nFrom the introduction:\n\n\"The blame for the world’s failings lies not with humans, but with the \ncreator. Since -- especially in the monotheistic religions -- the creator is \nGod, this Gnostic position appears blasphemous, and is often viewed with \ndismay even by non-believers.\"\n\nA fairly lengthy excerpt from the intro page is particularly tantalizing in \nlight of Patera Silk's \"enlightenment\" by the Outsider--and in light of \nWolfe's own attitude toward \"true myths\" in his work: \n\n\"GNOSTICISM IS THE TEACHING based on Gnosis, the knowledge of transcendence \narrived at by way of interior, intuitive means. Although Gnosticism thus \nrests on personal religious experience, it is a mistake to assume all such \nexperience results in Gnostic recognitions. \n\n\"It is nearer the truth to say that Gnosticism expresses a specific religious \nexperience, an experience that does not lend itself to the language of \ntheology or philosophy, but which is instead closely affinitized to, and \nexpresses itself through, the medium of myth. Indeed, one finds that most \nGnostic scriptures take the forms of myths. The term 'myth' should not here \nbe taken to mean 'stories that are not true,' but rather, that the truths \nembodied in these myths are of a different order from the dogmas of theology \nor the statements of philosophy...The True God of transcendence is unknown in \nthis world, in fact He is often called the Unknown Father. It is thus obvious \nthat revelation from on High is needed to bring about salvation. \n\n\"The indwelling spark must be awakened from its terrestrial slumber by the \nsaving knowledge that comes 'from without'...in the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas, \nJesus answered that human beings must come by Gnosis to know the ineffable, \ndivine reality from whence they have originated, and whither they will \nreturn. This transcendental knowledge must come to them while they are still \nembodied on earth.\" \n\nAs to the myriad \"intermediate deific beings\" that inhabit Wolfe's universe: \n\n\"The basic Gnostic myth has many variations, but all of these refer to Aeons, \nintermediate deific beings who exist between the ultimate, True God and \nourselves. They, together with the True God, comprise the realm of Fullness \n(Pleroma) wherein the potency of divinity operates fully.\"\n\nI'll be puzzling over these affinities for some time and would certainly \nappreciate \"enlightenment\" from those more familiar with Gnosticism than \nmyself.\n\nDan" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "In a message dated 10/10/2002 9:43:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, straight at email.unc.edu writes:\n\nIf Whorl=Garden and Pas=God, then Outsider=???\n\nThe view that religion and politics aren't subjects for polite conversation doesn't appear to be a view Gene Wolfe fans can casually adopt. (Which may account for a great deal of his appeal.)\n\nI don't know nearly enough about the various Gnostic doctrines, but the more I do learn about them, the more affinities I notice between certain of those doctrines and the BotLS. \n\nI suppose readers must take Wolfe at his word when he confesses that he's an orthodox Catholic--while keeping in mind that at least some elements of his theology are decidedly nonorthodox. For example, his belief in the (prior?) existence of pagan gods and goddesses. \n\nI'll leave to the theologians on this remarkable list the question of whether Wolfe's additions lean toward the heretical or merely the eccentric. But in appraising his works, particularly the BotLS, it might be useful to pursue in a little more depth what appear--at first blush, anyway--to be striking similarities between Wolfe and Gnostic thought. \n\nThe online Gnostic Library (http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/library.html) includes an introductory page written by a Gnostic Bishop. The above speculation, \"Whorl=Garden and Pas=God, then the Outsider=???\" is addressed there in a remarkable fashion: Whorl=Garden and Pas=the God of all Creation, the God of the material world, the God outlined in the Old Testament, then the Outsider=the Unknown God who is the true focus of Gnostic revelation.\n\nFrom the introduction:\n\n\"The blame for the world’s failings lies not with humans, but with the creator. Since -- especially in the monotheistic religions -- the creator is God, this Gnostic position appears blasphemous, and is often viewed with dismay even by non-believers.\"\n\nA fairly lengthy excerpt from the intro page is particularly tantalizing in light of Patera Silk's \"enlightenment\" by the Outsider--and in light of Wolfe's own attitude toward \"true myths\" in his work: \n\n\"GNOSTICISM IS THE TEACHING based on Gnosis, the knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior, intuitive means. Although Gnosticism thus rests on personal religious experience, it is a mistake to assume all such experience results in Gnostic recognitions. \n\n\"It is nearer the truth to say that Gnosticism expresses a specific religious experience, an experience that does not lend itself to the language of theology or philosophy, but which is instead closely affinitized to, and expresses itself through, the medium of myth. Indeed, one finds that most Gnostic scriptures take the forms of myths. The term 'myth' should not here be taken to mean 'stories that are not true,' but rather, that the truths embodied in these myths are of a different order from the dogmas of theology or the statements of philosophy...The True God of transcendence is unknown in this world, in fact He is often called the Unknown Father. It is thus obvious that revelation from on High is needed to bring about salvation. \n\n\"The indwelling spark must be awakened from its terrestrial slumber by the saving knowledge that comes 'from without'...in the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas, Jesus answered that human beings must come by Gnosis to know the ineffable, divine reality from whence they have originated, and whither they will return. This transcendental knowledge must come to them while they are still embodied on earth.\" \n\nAs to the myriad \"intermediate deific beings\" that inhabit Wolfe's universe: \n\n\"The basic Gnostic myth has many variations, but all of these refer to Aeons, intermediate deific beings who exist between the ultimate, True God and ourselves. They, together with the True God, comprise the realm of Fullness (Pleroma) wherein the potency of divinity operates fully.\"\n\nI'll be puzzling over these affinities for some time and would certainly appreciate \"enlightenment\" from those more familiar with Gnosticism than myself.\n\nDan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-10-11T00:46:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 DSG20001 at aol.com wrote:\nIn a message dated 10/10/2002 9:43:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time,\nstraight at email.unc.edu writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Whorl=Garden and Pas=God," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pas == Demiourgos" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " then Outsider=???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Outsider == God" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The view that religion and politics aren't subjects for polite conversation\ndoesn't appear to be a view Gene Wolfe fans can casually adopt. (Which may\naccount for a great deal of his appeal.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know nearly enough about the various Gnostic doctrines, but the more\nI do learn about them, the more affinities I notice between certain of those\ndoctrines and the BotLS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose readers must take Wolfe at his word when he confesses that he's an\northodox Catholic--while keeping in mind that at least some elements of his\ntheology are decidedly nonorthodox. For example, his belief in the (prior?)\nexistence of pagan gods and goddesses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's in the Bible.\n\n'Prior', that's a loaded term. We're working with two entirely different\nways of looking at Time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll leave to the theologians on this remarkable list the question of whether\nWolfe's additions lean toward the heretical or merely the eccentric." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe's orthodox.\n\nHe communicates, you know?\n\nHe's learned. He knows many of the more poorly documented features\nof the religion and the picture of the World associated with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " But in\nappraising his works, particularly the BotLS, it might be useful to\npursue in a little more depth what appear--at first blush, anyway--to be\nstriking similarities between Wolfe and Gnostic thought." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe's gnostic only in the sense that Catholic or Orthodox Christianity\nis a subset of gnosticism.\n\nBut in fact the name and concept of gnosticism was invented by the\nOrthodox (\"correct-believing\") to seperate themselves from the heterodox\n(\"different-believing\").\n\nBefore what became the Orthodox church got into bed with the Roman state,\nthere were just different kinds of Christians and such arguing amongst\neach other.\n\nAfter the 330's, the Orthodox owned the cops, and enthusiastically\nemployed them suppressing everyone who 'believed different'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The online Gnostic Library (http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/library.html)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "www.enemies.com is my favorite.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-10-12T01:24:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Josh Geller\" \n\nquoting Rostrum::" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The online Gnostic Library (http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/library.html)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "www.enemies.com is my favorite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, the graphics are fun there, but the information is flip and sophomoric;\nfor instance, there seems to be no awareness of the central Sophia myth. The\nGnostic Library is the place to browse. Or an elementary printed text is\nHans Jonas's \"The Gnostic Religion: the Message of the Alien God and the\nBeginnings of Christianity.\"\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-10-12T03:04:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Alice K. Turner wrote:\nFrom: \"Josh Geller\" \nquoting Rostrum::" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The online Gnostic Library (http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/library.html)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "www.enemies.com is my favorite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " ^^" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, the graphics are fun there, but the information is flip and sophomoric;\nfor instance, there seems to be no awareness of the central Sophia myth. The\nGnostic Library is the place to browse. Or an elementary printed text is\nHans Jonas's \"The Gnostic Religion: the Message of the Alien God and the\nBeginnings of Christianity.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So it's not your favorite.\n\nSo nu?\n\nI lied, actually, it's not really my favorite.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kjm at panix.com" }, "date": "2002-10-23T00:54:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\n\nAlga Alice just encouraged me to post this observation I made to her off-list:\n\nIt's pretty clear to me that Wolfe didn't have the Short Sun in mind when \nhe started Long Sun, but that he did by the time he finished Long Sun. Pas \nas demiurge is such a clear image that it's hard to believe that he \n*didn't* intend for the work to function, in part at least, as an attack on \nGnosticism; he may have teased the ideas out further as he composed the \nlater novels.\n\nMy biggest metaquestion about Return to the Whorl was \"why is there so much \nnarrative effort devoted to burying Scylla's shade?\"; if she somehow \nrepresents Sophia, then it makes more sense. But it's hard to see how she \nwould be Sophia. The adult Scylla is about as vile a character as Wolfe has \nlimned, and the child is pretty passive.\n\nHere's a connection I've never teased out before: Silk is (in part) St. \nFrancis of Assisi, who lived from 1181 to 1226, in Umbria; his mother is \nbelieved to have been Provencal. The Albigensians flourished in Provence in \nthe 12th and 13th centuries; the Albigensians were quasi-Gnostic. The \nCatholic Encyclopedia doesn't say anything about Francis opposing the \nAlbigensians, but the temporal overlap is striking.\n\n" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat, a. k. a. Kevin J. Maroney kjm at panix.com\nNew York Review of Science Fiction: \n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-10-23T15:38:31+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's a connection I've never teased out before: Silk is (in \npart) St. Francis of Assisi, who lived from 1181 to 1226, in\nUmbria; " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes ... his preaching to animals (and birds in particular)\nshould make that clear.\n\nHe's also part Father Brown, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Catholic Encyclopedia doesn't say anything about Francis\nopposing the Albigensians, but the temporal overlap is striking." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...yes, particularly given the other observations in your\npost. Nicely done.\n\nIs the Chapter, then, inherently Gnostic? Interestingly, it \ndoes not seem to be -- though \"enlightenment\" has some aspects\nof _gnosis_, it partakes quite as much of the prophetic trance,\nand the \"prayer of union\" spoken of by St. Teresa of Avila;\nand there is nothing about the teachings or acts of the Chapter\nthat makes me think \"Gnosticism.\" Rather, it is a reasonably\northodox sort of middle-Eastern polytheism -- the sort which \npreceded and developed into monothesitic Judaism -- which,\nhowever, happens to exist in a pocket universe whose nature is, \nin fact, Gnostic; which in turn exists in a larger universe \nwhose nature is what one might expect from the teachings of\northodox Catholicism...\n\nI don't know why people think Wolfe is complicated. 8*)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-10-23T15:47:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nthat makes me think \"Gnosticism.\" Rather, it is a reasonably\northodox sort of middle-Eastern polytheism -- the sort which\npreceded and developed into monothesitic Judaism" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather Hellenic or Nordic than Middle Eastern, I think.\n\nThe enfolding of the impulse to address the divine (which Silk feels and\nexpresses in his *false* religion) by the real divinity of the Outsider\nmirrors the \"baptising\" of european native pantheism by invading\nmonotheistic Christianity\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-10-23T16:00:02+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wrote:\nthat makes me think \"Gnosticism.\" Rather, it is a \nreasonably orthodox sort of middle-Eastern\npolytheism -- the sort which preceded and developed\ninto monothesitic Judaism" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And hartshorn responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rather Hellenic or Nordic than Middle Eastern, I think.\n\nThe enfolding of the impulse to address the divine (which \nSilk feels and expresses in his *false* religion) by the real \ndivinity of the Outsider mirrors the \"baptising\" of european \nnative pantheism by invading monotheistic Christianity" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see your point, and even agree with it -- there is a \ncertain feel to the Whorldly pantheon that does remind one \nof (especially) the Greek gods; and naturally so, since \nthey are to some not-insignificant extent patterned after \nthem. \n\nBut I was not speaking of the pantheon (which is, more or\nless, universal to the Whorl) but of the Chapter; and the \nforms and rituals of the Chapter (and especially that of \nthe sacrificial rite) very much resemble those of the \nMiddle East." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kjm at panix.com" }, "date": "2002-10-23T19:14:05+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:00 PM 10/23/02, Blattid wrote:\nBut I was not speaking of the pantheon (which is, more or\nless, universal to the Whorl) but of the Chapter; and the\nforms and rituals of the Chapter (and especially that of\nthe sacrificial rite) very much resemble those of the\nMiddle East." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What do you feel is specifically Middle Eastern about them rather than \nHellenic?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Wombat, aka Kevin J. Maroney | kjm at panix.com\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-10-23T19:22:00+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But I was not speaking of the pantheon (which is, more or less, \nuniversal to the Whorl) but of the Chapter; and the forms \nand rituals of the Chapter (and especially that of the sacrificial\nrite) very much resemble those of the Middle East." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What do you feel is specifically Middle Eastern about them \nrather than Hellenic?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The description of the sacrificial rite is very remniscent of\nwhat is known of the rites of sacrifice in the temple at \nJerusalem, including the business about splashing the blood\non the altar, the regulations about what gets burned and what \ngets eaten ... I'm admittedly making the assumption that the\nJerusalem sacrifice was typical of the Middle East; much of \nHebrew religion was, though repurposed for monotheism.\n\nIf these things are typical of Greek sacrifice, then I'm simply\nwrong." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-10-24T00:25:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not answering anyone completely because it's just too hard to do multiple\nanswers on the Digest now (hi, Ranjit!) but Wombat asked why Middle Eastern\nmythology rather than Hellenic or Norse? An easy answer would be that\nneither ever had a goddess as fierce and treacherous as Inanna/Ishtar could\nbe, and that we meet in the series. (Though indeed the Celts had some.) But,\naha, that is a canard. The mythology, as Typhon/Pas planned it, is indeed\nHellenic. In Greek mythology nearly all monsters are female, though there's\nan occasional male with eye problems, like the Cyclops or Argus--or Typhon\nhimself, whose problems were explosive rather than ocular. I think Wolfe\nprobably read Gilgamesh, if not other Middle Eastern myths, and got some\ninput into vengeful female deities. He certainly used the Gnostic Demiurge,\nwho was Middle Eastern, in another tradition. And the shorter works point to\nsome interest in Native American myth. But the Plan of Pas wrt the Family is\nbased strongly on Greek myth, particularly on Hesiod's account of who begat\nwhom: the children of Echidna and Typhon, with a borrowing or two from here\nand there. There's a nasty sense of humor at work in the Plan of Pas as his\nuploaded offspring act out their assumed roles, as if in a charade. Wolfe is\nin no way sympatheic to Pas as Demiuurge.\n\nSo: Sophia. Wombat and I puzzled over the extended and rather out-of-whack\nfictionally, baby Scylla sequence in the last SS novel, wondering if this\ncould be a last-ditch attempt to drag a Sophia figure in (sorry, Wombat, I\nam paraphrasing, and possibly mis-phrasing). But, as he says, it seems\nrather strained, whether or not this is true. And perhaps that is what is\nmeant by an anti-Gnostic view--because in my own view Sophia is an\nextraordinarily sympathetic, if terribly mistaken, figure. And that is not\nwhat Wolfe has given us, in either aspect of his Scylla.\n\nFinally, interesting that this St. Francis's job is the slaughter of\nanimals.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-10-25T15:47:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps I'm being dense, and it's been several years since I last read\nTBOTLS; but I don't see any particular connection between the Long Sun books\nand Gnosticism, either positive and negative. I don't see anything that Pas\nhas in common with the Demiurge that he doesn't have in common with pagan\n\"high gods\" such as Zeus, who are the obvious models. Unlike the Demiurge,\nPas didn't really create anything. And Typhon himself only \"created\" the\nWhorl in the sense that Rockefeller created Standard Oil; it may have been\nan act of sinful pride, but it had no cosmic significance that I'm aware of.\nStill less do I see how the Long Sun books are a criticism of Gnosticism\n(unless, as mantis said, one assumes that Gnostics worshipped the Demiurge,\nwhich afaik they never did). But, as I say, perhaps I'm just missing\nsomething.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-10-25T16:12:29+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam Stephanides said:\nPerhaps I'm being dense, and it's been several years since I last read\nTBOTLS; but I don't see any particular connection between the Long Sun books\nand Gnosticism, either positive and negative...But, as I say, perhaps I'm\njust missing\nsomething.\n\nWell, like the \"New Age\", Gnoticism adopted so many elements from so many\nplaces and ideas that it's difficult to say in anything theological without\nit suggesting Gnostic influence. Still, there is this quote from the\nCatholic Encyclopedia which seems to be a source to which Wolfe frequently\nreturns:\n\n\"Although the origins of Gnosticism are still largely enveloped in\nobscurity, so much light has been shed on the problem by the combined\nlabours of many scholars that it is possible to give the following tentative\nsolution: Although Gnosticism may at first sight appear a mere thoughtless\nsyncretism of well nigh all religious systems in antiquity, it has in\nreality one deep root-principle, which assimilated in every soil what is\nneeded for its life and growth; this principle is philosophical and\nreligious pessimism. The Gnostics, it is true, borrowed their terminology\nalmost entirely from existing religions, but they only used it to illustrate\ntheir great idea of the essential evil of this present existence and the\nduty to escape it by the help of magic spells and a superhuman Saviour.\nWhatever they borrowed, this pessimism they did not borrow -- not from Greek\nthought, which was a joyous acknowledgment of and homage to the beautiful\nand noble in this world, with a studied disregard of the element of sorrow;\nnot from Egyptian thought, which did not allow its elaborate speculations on\nretribution and judgment in the netherworld to cast a gloom on this present\nexistence, but considered the universe created or evolved under the\npresiding wisdom of Thoth; not from Iranian thought, which held to the\nabsolute supremacy of Ahura Mazda and only allowed Ahriman a subordinate\nshare in the creation, or rather counter-creation, of the world; not from\nIndian Brahminic thought, which was Pantheism pure and simple, or God\ndwelling in, nay identified with, the universe, rather than the Universe\nexisting as the contradictory of God; not, lastly, from Semitic thought, for\nSemitic religions were strangely reticent as to the fate of the soul after\ndeath, and saw all practical wisdom in the worship of Baal, or Marduk, or\nAssur, or Hadad, that they might live long on this earth. This utter\npessimism, bemoaning the existence of the whole universe as a corruption and\na calamity, with a feverish craving to be freed from the body of this death\nand a mad hope that, if we only knew, we could by some mystic words undo the\ncursed spell of this existence -- this is the foundation of all Gnostic\nthought. It has the same parent-soil as Buddhism; but Buddhism is ethical,\nit endeavours to obtain its end by the extinction of all desire; Gnosticism\nis pseudo-intellectual, and trusts exclusively to magical knowledge.\nMoreover, Gnosticism, placed in other historical surroundings, developed\nfrom the first on other lines than Buddhism.\"\nhttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm\n\nWell consider Silk's speech at on the airship after he attempted to kill\nhimself. Doesn't it suggest a Gnostic attitude? Doesn't Silk reject this\noutlook in the end?\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "tom", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2002-10-25T17:40:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\nI don't see any particular connection between the Long Sun books\nand Gnosticism, either positive and negative." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk holds the \"primary\" Gnostic belief - that the god(s) of this\nworld/Whorl are false, and that the true God exists outside in\nsome sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see anything that Pas has in common with the Demiurge\nthat he doesn't have in common with pagan \"high gods\" such as\nZeus, who are the obvious models." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Zeus, in the standard Greek model, was exactly who he claimed to\nbe - father of the gods and head honcho. The Demiurge is exactly\n_not_ what he claims to be - the one God. Pas/Typhon is in that\nboat. He's set himself up as a god, but really isn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still less do I see how the Long Sun books are a criticism\nof Gnosticism" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he's sort of re-purposing Gnosticism.\n\nThe danger Gnosticism poses to Christianity (and Catholicism\nin particular) is that it pulls the same trick on Christianity\nthat Christianity pulled on the pagans. To be short, the\nChristian God was set up as the God of the pagan Gods; in the\nsame manner the Gnostic God was set up as the superior of the\nChristian God. This is the \"old\" sense of Gnosticism, and\nis obviously unacceptable to Wolfe.\n\nIn the Long Sun Whorl, however, being Gnostic is the only\ncorrect way to be. As opposed to the \"real\" world, the Whorl\nreally is run by a mad god, and the only escape is through belief\nin a god \"outside\".\n\nIn the book, then, Wolfe draws a parallel between the current\nsituation in the \"real\" world and the Whorl - trapped in a\ndecaying hulk, people worship exactly what got them into this mess\nin the first place: technology. Wolfe wants the reader to\nrecognize how tech is made a god, and to become a (new, improved)\nGnostic by finding the real God outside of the world. This\nis the \"new\" sense of being a Gnostic.\n\nIn this new sense (not the bad old sense) being a Gnostic is ok.\nWolfe has simultaneously criticized Gnosticism (after all, when\nSilk meets the Creator, that's it - he's found the Source) while\nreinvigorating it (by using it as a model for how we should relate\nto the modern world).\n\nJames Wynn quotes the Catholic Encyclopedia:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Gnosticism ... has in reality one deep root-principle, which\nassimilated in every soil what is needed for its life and\ngrowth; this principle is philosophical and religious pessimism...\nThis utter pessimism, bemoaning the existence of the whole universe\nas a corruption and a calamity, with a feverish craving to be\nfreed from the body of this death and a mad hope that, if we only\nknew, we could by some mystic words undo the cursed spell of this\nexistence -- this is the foundation of all Gnostic thought.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gnostics (as far as we know) weren't all that pessimistic, really.\nCompared to doctrines like Sheol and predestination, Gnostics\nwere positively euphoric.\n\nIt's best to read this entire entry as an outdated (almost 100\nyear old) polemic by an ancient enemy of the Gnostics, rather\nthan a serious analysis." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-10-29T15:03:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 10/25/02 12:40 PM, tom at tom at bitterman.net wrote:\n\nAdam Stephanides wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see any particular connection between the Long Sun books\nand Gnosticism, either positive and negative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk holds the \"primary\" Gnostic belief - that the god(s) of this\nworld/Whorl are false," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But this is not specific to Gnosticism, but true for any monotheist in a\npolytheistic world--like Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and that the true God exists outside in\nsome sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the Outsider isn't really \"outside\"; that's just the role assigned him\nin Pas's mythology. In reality he's just as much inside as outside; the\nWhorl is no less a part of his creation than anything else is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see anything that Pas has in common with the Demiurge\nthat he doesn't have in common with pagan \"high gods\" such as\nZeus, who are the obvious models." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Zeus, in the standard Greek model, was exactly who he claimed to\nbe - father of the gods and head honcho." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But not in Wolfe's reported beliefs (or in the beliefs of the early\nChristians), in which the pagan gods existed, but were not really gods.\nJust like Pas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the Long Sun Whorl, however, being Gnostic is the only\ncorrect way to be. As opposed to the \"real\" world, the Whorl\nreally is run by a mad god, and the only escape is through belief\nin a god \"outside\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How does this square with the fact that Pas wants \"his\" people to leave the\nWhorl?\n\non 10/25/02 11:12 AM, James Wynn at crushtv at HotPOP.com wrote (quoting the\nCatholic encyclopedia):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Although Gnosticism may at first sight appear a mere thoughtless\nsyncretism of well nigh all religious systems in antiquity, it has in\nreality one deep root-principle, which assimilated in every soil what is\nneeded for its life and growth; this principle is philosophical and\nreligious pessimism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This utter\npessimism, bemoaning the existence of the whole universe as a corruption and\na calamity, with a feverish craving to be freed from the body of this death\nand a mad hope that, if we only knew, we could by some mystic words undo the\ncursed spell of this existence -- this is the foundation of all Gnostic\nthought." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well consider Silk's speech at on the airship after he attempted to kill\nhimself. Doesn't it suggest a Gnostic attitude? Doesn't Silk reject this\noutlook in the end?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pessimism isn't peculiar to Gnosticism; and in several of Wolfe's other\nbooks, in which nobody has (yet) suggested Gnostic influence afaik, the\nprotagonists are at times in similar states of despair. And Silk seems to\nhave been reacting to the evil that \"lurks in the hearts of men\" rather than\nany cosmic evil: e. g. \"instead of focusing on the evil in myself, as I\nshould have, I gave my attention to the evil in others.\" (345, EXODUS hc)\n\nIncidentally, unless I'm overlooking something, Silk did not attempt to kill\nhimself on the airship; he was contemplating suicide when Horn appeared and\ndistracted him. \n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-10-29T15:20:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, Adam Stephanides wrote:\nBut not in Wolfe's reported beliefs (or in the beliefs of the early\nChristians), in which the pagan gods existed, but were not really gods." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are really gods, but they are not really God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just like Pas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A deified ruler.\n\nLike many (most?) historical gods.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-10-29T17:36:04+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam and Tom exchanging ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't see any particular connection between the Long Sun \nbooks and Gnosticism, either positive and negative." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Silk holds the \"primary\" Gnostic belief - that the god(s) of this \nworld/Whorl are false," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But this is not specific to Gnosticism, but true for any \nmonotheist in a polytheistic world--like Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For clarity:\n\nThe \"Gnostic model\" of the Long Sun books is this:\n\nIn Wolfe's \"major\" works, he presents settings in an orthodox\nCatholic universe in which \"other\" religious traditions can be\nliteralized.\n\ntBotNS portrays a world in which Kabbala is literally true; \nthe \"Soldier\" books portray a world in which paganism -- sc.\nGreek myth -- is literally true. And in the Long Sun books,\nhe is portraying a world, set against a larger, orthodox\nCatholic universe, in which Gnosticism (or at least one form\nof it) is literally true.\n\nTo summarize how a form of Gnosticism is literalized in the\nLong Sun books:\n\nAll things (the whole larger universe in which the \"Sun\" \nbooks are, overall, set) emanate from the one True God \n(Silk's Outsider). From those \"emanations,\" a Demiurge \n(Pas), with the help of other \"Archons\" (Pas' family and \nthe lesser gods) have made a false, material world (the \nWhorl). In such a world, the only way in which humans and \nthe True God can approach each other is by an act of Gnosis \n(Silk's enlightenment), for which a human may and must \nprepare himself (Silk's discipline and religious training), \nbut which is still ultimately an act of the True God.\n\nZat make sense?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-10-31T17:46:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 10/29/02 11:36 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes at ddanehy at siebel.com wrote:\nFor clarity:\n\nThe \"Gnostic model\" of the Long Sun books is this:\n\nIn Wolfe's \"major\" works, he presents settings in an orthodox\nCatholic universe in which \"other\" religious traditions can be\nliteralized.\n\ntBotNS portrays a world in which Kabbala is literally true;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know much about Kabbalah (just what I've read in Gerschom Scholem),\nand don't recall much of the discussions on this list of the topic; but\nbased on what little I do know, I doubt that this is the case, despite Wolfe\nborrowing of Kabbalistic terminology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the \"Soldier\" books portray a world in which paganism -- sc.\nGreek myth -- is literally true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They reflect Wolfe's own beliefs that the pagan \"gods\" really existed; this\nis different from his writing as if a world-view he believes false were\ntrue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And in the Long Sun books,\nhe is portraying a world, set against a larger, orthodox\nCatholic universe, in which Gnosticism (or at least one form\nof it) is literally true.\n\nTo summarize how a form of Gnosticism is literalized in the\nLong Sun books:\n\nAll things (the whole larger universe in which the \"Sun\"\nbooks are, overall, set) emanate from the one True God\n(Silk's Outsider)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We aren't told whether the Outsider created the universe actively a la\nGenesis, or whether it \"emanated\" from him Gnostic-style." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From those \"emanations,\" a Demiurge\n(Pas), with the help of other \"Archons\" (Pas' family and\nthe lesser gods) have made a false, material world (the\nWhorl)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that, as I said before, Pas created nothing; Typhon did. And the\nrelationship between Pas and the other gods is much more like that of a\npolytheistic high god to other gods, than that of the Demiurge to the\nArchons, afaik. And while the Whorl is artificial, it isn't \"false\" in the\nsense that the material universe is false in Gnosticism, just artificial.\nWhile the story its inhabitants are told about its creation is false, the\nWhorl itself is no less directly part of the Outsider's creation than\nanything else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In such a world, the only way in which humans and\nthe True God can approach each other is by an act of Gnosis\n(Silk's enlightenment)," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But afaik, \"gnosis\" in ancient Gnosticism (which, given Wolfe's general\ninterest in the ancient world, is more likely to be what he had in mind than\nany of the modern varieties, if indeed he had any sort of Gnosticism in\nmind) refers not to a sudden, mystical enlightenment, but to the learning of\na body of esoteric doctrine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "for which a human may and must\nprepare himself (Silk's discipline and religious training),\nbut which is still ultimately an act of the True God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Zat make sense?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I grant that there are parallels between Gnosticism and the universe of\nTBOTLS. But most of them apply as well or better to monotheism vs.\npolytheism, as I've said before. The only thing which suggests Gnosticism\nspecifically is the \"artificial world\" nature of the Whorl, and even that is\nnot a \"literal\" transposition of Gnosticism. Absent any explicit indication\nthat Wolfe had Gnosticism in mind, I remain unconvinced.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-11-01T16:24:42+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam said\nWe aren't told whether the Outsider created the universe actively a la\nGenesis, or whether it \"emanated\" from him Gnostic-style.\n\nCrush interjects\nWell, we do know that in the Long Sun, the Outsider is the acknowledged\ncreator of humans (from mud) in the Chrasmological Writings (I think this is\nin LS 2). This suggests that Typhon may not be a true Demiurge\nGnostic-style, but a pretender to Demi-urge status - some one who has\nkidnapped the Outsider's creations into his Gnostic creation.\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-11-02T15:27:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been out of the country for this discussion, and have skimmed the \nposts. A few comments:\n 1. Gnosticism is just \"philosophy + myth.\" Philosophy, whether \nGreek or Buddhist, held that the \"world\" is corrupt in some essential way, \nand that the wise man \"escapes\" from the world through contemplation, \ncontemplating his way out of the \"cave.\" Gnosticism popularized this \nnotion, adding myths, and various ritual and esoteric ways of escape \n(though esotericism is all over Plato, Aristotle, and Pythagoras, if you \nread them aright). The prophets of Israel preached against all escape, and \ncalled the people to involve themselves with the plight of the poor, the \noppressed, etc.; and Jesus and the (best) of the Church follows this. \nChristianity, with its sacraments of water, oil, bread, and wine, and with \nits central doctrine of physical resurrection, is very \"this-worldly,\" \npreaching redemption and activistic good works, not escape into contemplation.\n 2. Judeo-Christianity teaches creation of the world \"out of \nnothing\" by a Creator. Gnosticism teaches that the present world is an \nemanation out of the \"substance\" of the \"prime mover\" (plug in other titles \nas well). Somewhere down the line, the Demiurge formed the present world \nout of part of what had emanated from the Prime Mover. The Demiurge might \nbe \"evil\" and seeking to corrupt the emanation, or he might just be doing \nhis \"demurge thing\" by forming and shaping it. Either way, the world is \neither evil and to be escaped, or else grossly inferior and to be transcended.\n 3. Typhon is, IMO, much like the Demiurge, in that he forms his \nWhorl out of preexisting matter. Pas rules this Whorl, so he is not a \n\"demiurge\" but merely a \"god.\" But the Outsider, is just that: outside of \nit all. He is the Creator, not a Prime Mover, and the cosmos is not made \nout of his substance. He is outside of it, not the highest part of it. And, \nbeing outside of it all, He can also by His Spirit, be intimately \"inside\" \nof it, but as a personal \"friend,\" not as some kind of \"essential \nsubstance.\" The Outsider can stand behind Silk/Horn and as a Friend \nencourage him to worship through bread and wine. Silk first comes to know \nthe Outsider as \"outside the Whorl\" and above Pas, and then as \"outside\" \nthe whole cosmos as Creator thereof.\n 4. The Outsider as a minor god in Typhon's pantheon is a play on \nthe \"Unknown God\" of Acts chapter 17. He can be understood within the \npantheon as \"every other god we don't know about,\" but in reality He is the \nleftover awareness of the Creator. Hence, for Wolfe, as for orthodox \nChristianity, pagan religions are a mixture of awareness of the truth of an \nOutside Creator mingled and corrupted by a \"scale of being\" or \"gnostic\" or \n\"emanation-hierarchical\" view of reality. Thus, Chapter religion has some \nof both in it. But what is happening is not a \"baptizing\" of prior \npaganism, but an extrication from it. It is a mistake to read early and \neven medieval Christianity as \"baptizing\" pagan forms. Rather, the leaders \nsought, with varying degress of success, to substitute Christian notions \nfor pagan ones, Christmas for the feast of Sol, saints for gods, etc.\n 5. Alga: yes there is a fierce bloodthirsty goddess among the \nsemites: Anath, roughly like Diana or Artemis. (Maybe I misread you here.) \nAstarte/Ashteroth is more like Venus/Aphrodite -- though as always there is \noverlap.\n 6. Greco-Roman gods and myths were not much different from \nSemitic/Canaanite ones, and really, Nordic ones were not much different \neither. I don't think sacrificial rituals were much different either. I \ndon't think we have to debate much \"which\" of these myths Wolfe is using. \nHe's probably combining all of them, with the Greco-Roman pantheon most \nprominent in the Whorl and something like Old Testament animal sacrifices \nmost prominent in the local Chapter rituals. Remember, Wolfe is also \nplaying with the transition from Old Testament to New, with Typhon's \npantheon being like the Roman rulers of Palestine, and Chapter religion \nbeing like the religion of the Jews at the time of Christ (that is, the \ntime of Silk).\n 7. Wolfe did use Qabbalah some in New Sun: Yesodh and Briahh; \nthough there he merely picked up some words to use in connection with an \nessentially \"Catholic\" universe. Given that gnosticism was not much \ndifferent from either philosophy or earlier polytheism, but was a kind of \nnew \"late and decayed-pessimistic\" version of both, it is no surprise that \nwhat Silk is growing out of has resemblances to all three (Marcus Aurelius \nin the Chrasmological writings, a pantheon of gods, a gnostic view of \nreality, etc.).\n 8. The first time I read the New Sun, I thought Wolfe had just set \nup a Gnostic universe and was playing with it. Not so, he says. And to some \nextent, I think the Long Sun was a way of making that clear. If I might put \nwords in his mouth, I would suggest that he is saying that some kind of \ngnostic/polytheistic understanding of the universe is what everybody \nnaturally thinks until or unless they come to a Christian \"creational\" view \nof the universe; and that the psychological process of moving from the \nformer to the latter does not happen overnight, but takes time. Hence, a \ngnostic/polytheistic world is \"real\" to people who have not been \n\"enlightened\" like Silk. But Silk's \"enlightenment\" does not mean he is \nmoving \"up\" a gnostic hierarchy into transcendence, but that he is moving \n\"out\" of a gnostic view of reality altogether, and can now see these \"gods\" \nfor what they really are: mere creatures, even if powerful ones. To a \nlesser extent, and much less clearly, Severian is moving in the same \ndirection.\n 9. Finally, since this came up, the Calvinistic doctrine of \npredestination (speaking as a Calvinistic theologian) is not much different \nfrom Augustine's and Aquinas's. Whoever described the \"two eye\" perspective \n-- from within time and from outside of time -- pretty well described it. \n(Sorry, I can't remember who wrote what.) On all sides, the doctrine is \nregarded as a \"mystery,\" since in order to \"understand\" it, you would have \nto be God Himself, and folks, we aren't God and we're never gonna be. So we \nleave it as a mystery. Somehow we are free and our actions do count, and \nyet God as Creator of time and of all \"events\" in time, \"foreordained\" it \nall. The Calvinistic confessions of faith state that this is a matter that \nshould be handled very gingerly and carefully, since to try to think about \nit very much is to fall into the sin of playing god. Anyway, Wolfe is a \nconventional Thomist most of the time, so I imagine he would agree with \nthis. The debates between Catholics and Protestants really lie in other areas.\n\n I don't know if all this helps the discussion, but I hope it helps \na bit.\n\nPatera Nutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-11-02T16:47:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Boethius, AD 400, IIRC\n\n hartshorn\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Jordan\" \n 9. Finally, since this came up, the Calvinistic doctrine of\npredestination (speaking as a Calvinistic theologian) is not much\ndifferent\nfrom Augustine's and Aquinas's. Whoever described the \"two eye\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "perspective" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-- from within time and from outside of time -- pretty well described it.\n(Sorry, I can't remember who wrote what.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-11-02T17:16:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 2 Nov 2002, James Jordan wrote:\nI've been out of the country for this discussion, and have skimmed the\nposts. A few comments:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 1. Gnosticism is just \"philosophy + myth.\" Philosophy, whether\nGreek or Buddhist," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These are the only two kinds of philosophy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " held that the \"world\" is corrupt in some essential\nway," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The more I think about this, the less I am satisfied with it, and the less\nI think it is true, even if you limit it to Greek philosophy (what about\nLucretius? what about Epicurus?) and Buddhist philosophy (what about\nTheravada? what about dhyana/Ch'an/Zen?).\n\nWhat about all of these religious philosophers? They aren't really\nphilosophers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and that the wise man \"escapes\" from the world through contemplation,\ncontemplating his way out of the \"cave.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is not at all consonant with my understanding of the Cave. Even after\nyou've been outside of the Cave, you still have to go back inside and live\nthere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Gnosticism popularized this\nnotion, adding myths, and various ritual and esoteric ways of escape\n(though esotericism is all over Plato, Aristotle, and Pythagoras, if you\nread them aright). The prophets of Israel preached against all escape, and\ncalled the people to involve themselves with the plight of the poor, the\noppressed, etc.; and Jesus and the (best) of the Church follows this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christianity, with its sacraments of water, oil, bread, and wine, and with\nits central doctrine of physical resurrection, is very \"this-worldly,\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So does Plato.\n\nElse why is he so concerned about politics?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "preaching redemption and activistic good works, not escape into contemplation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's one big difference between the Jewish and the Christian way of\nlooking at things. Judaism says, do the right thing because it is the\nright thing to do. Christianity doesn't really say do the right thing so\nthat you will go to Heaven: salvation is a gift of grace, not the result\nof works. I guess when you really look at it a certain way Christianity\ndoes say the same thing as Judaism, if works are really inessential to\nsalvation. Still, it is amazing how many people have the impression that\npeople who do good things \"go to Heaven\" and people who do bad things \"go\nto Hell\".\n\nI have to say that I think that this whole focus on Gnosticism in the Book\nOf The Long Sun is sort of a distraction from the really more interesting\nthings that Gene Wolfe is doing with these books." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-11-02T19:04:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 11:16 AM 11/2/2002, Josh Geller wrote re: my post on Gnosticism:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have to say that I think that this whole focus on Gnosticism in the Book\nOf The Long Sun is sort of a distraction from the really more interesting\nthings that Gene Wolfe is doing with these books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I tend to agree. So I'll refrain from commenting on the rest of \nyour misgivings. They boil down mainly to detail questions arising from my \ntoo-cursury post's infelicities. And there's no great merit in getting into \nall that here.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-11-04T18:22:52+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nutria,\n\nIt's good to hear your comments, and to the very large extent\nthat we seem to be in agreement I take this as a point in \nfavor of what I've been saying -- not merely because you are,\nas always, astute, but because you are this list's other\nvocally professing Christian; I think that our agreement\nsuggests that what we are seeing may well be close to what\nWolfe, also a vocally professing Christian, intends, in that\nwe're coming from a similar world view to his." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " 1. Gnosticism is just \"philosophy + myth.\" \nPhilosophy, whether Greek or Buddhist, held that the\n\"world\" is corrupt in some essential way, and that the\nwise man \"escapes\" from the world through contemplation, \ncontemplating his way out of the \"cave.\" Gnosticism\npopularized this notion, adding myths, and various\nritual and esoteric ways of escape (though esotericism\nis all over Plato, Aristotle, and Pythagoras, if you \nread them aright). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pythagoras and Plato, certainly; I'm not as sure about\nAristotle, who leaned almost to empiricism at times, or\nat least this is the impression I get from my limited\nreading of his work (lecture notes, whatever you want\nto call it). \n\nBut the point that this kind of esotericism is deeply\npresent in Gk philosophy is quite true ... Socrates, if\nI am not mistaken, was an initiate of the Mysteries; and\nall the Gk philosphers seem clear that some people are\nfit for _sophia_ while the many are not ... an interesting\ncontrast with the Hebrew Wisdom tradition, which arises\nfrom the Middle-eastern wisdom literature. \n\nThe latter was intended to educate court scribes and \nofficials; this remains clear in especially the earlier \nWisdom books of the Hebrew canon, like Proverbs, which \nhave signficicant hunks of advice about how to behave \naround kings. But even in the earlier books, it's clear \nthat \"wisdom\" is something offered to the common \nIsraelite, and which should be sought by everyone ... \nwhile plainly stating that there are many individuals \n(generally referred to as \"the fool\") who will not.\n\nThe other unique aspect of the Hebrew wisdom books,\nvis-a-vis Gk philosophy and Middle-easter wisdom\nliterature, is its reliance on relationship with God\n-- \"Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom\" is one\ntypical expression of this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The prophets of Israel preached against all escape,\nand called the people to involve themselves with the\nplight of the poor, the oppressed, etc.; " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Law, the Prophets, and the Writings (which is\nmostly what we would call the wisdom literature) are\nquite univocal about this; it is the duty of those\nwith enough to concern themselves with the plight of\nthose who do not.\n\n(An interesting take on this, dragging us back momentarily\nto contemporary fantasy literature and thus to something\nvaguely similar to the ostensive topic of this list, is \nTolkien's \"Leaf by Niggle,\" about a very Tolkien-like artist \nwho wants nothing but to complete his Great Painting and is \nconstantly bothered by his duty to his neighbors. Which, \nhowever grudgingly, he does, which ends up being the \nsalvation of both himself and his painting. Grotesque \nsummary, but...) \n\nAnd actually reaching out to the list topic: Silk and\nthe Narrator continually harp on the plight of the poor\nof first Viron, and then Blue. One sideline interpretation\nof one aspect of the Short books would be to consider\nthe inhumi as a divinely-sent scourge, whose menace would\nbe reduced to nuisance if the people would live according\nto the Law (loving one's neighbors, taking care of society's\npoor). I do not go so far as to say \"Wolfe intended this,\"\nbut it wouldn't _surprise_ me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and Jesus and the (best) of the Church follows this. \nChristianity, with its sacraments of water, oil, bread, \nand wine, and with its central doctrine of physical\nresurrection, is very \"this-worldly,\" preaching redemption\nand activistic good works, not escape into contemplation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely ... even Catholicism, with all its cloistered\nand contemplative orders, is tremendously insistent on the\nphysical aspects of religion, which is often referred to as\n\"incarnationalism.\" The RCC insists on the importance of\nboth the physical substance of the Eucharistic Host, and the \nphysical requirements of the poor. Indeed, I (as a Catholic) \nbelieve that it is only by that insistence that the \ncontempative orders are kept from becoming essentially \nManicheeistic in their detachment from \"worldly things\" --\nthat, perhaps, is was necessary when the majority of \nProtestant churches shucked off the concept of \ntransubstantiation, it was necessary for them to shuck off \nalso the monastic orders ... and vice versa. (I do not here\nintend to argue for one church over another.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Typhon is, IMO, much like the Demiurge, in that \nhe forms his Whorl out of preexisting matter. Pas\nrules this Whorl, so he is not a \"demiurge\" but\nmerely a \"god.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, this is a distinction I had failed to make ...\nsomehow, I have this tendency to think of Typhon and\nPas as one entity. My bad. With this distinction, the\nanalogy/allegory becomes much clearer ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the Outsider, is just that: outside of it all.\nHe is the Creator, not a Prime Mover, and the cosmos \nis not made out of his substance. He is outside of\nit, not the highest part of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Part of the issue, of course, is that the Outsider is \nOutside because the gods of the Whorl deliberately\nshut him out -- tried to erase all memory of him when\nthey reprogrammed the original Cargo. But memory of the\n\"long sun Whorl\" religion, in trace form, remained, and\nbecame part of the Writings, in the few references to\nthe Outsider ... This implies, incidentally, that the \nWritings were not presented to the people of Viron \nalready-written by Scylla or some other god, but were \nset down by them in the early days ... so that they are, \nin a way, roughly analogous to one Christian model of \nthe Old Testament: \"a collection of the written records \nof one people's experiences of God...\" the \"Book of Silk\"\ntaking, presumably, a role similar to that of the NT,\nsomething I claimed long ago in my comments that the\nsearch for the \"facts\" behind the BoS is roughly analgous\nto that of Christians trying to uncover the \"facts\" of \nthe \"historical\" Jesus by looking at accounts written\nyears later by people who may or may not have been \npresent at the events. (Luke as much as confesses that\nhe was not; John claims that he was. Matthew and Mark\nmake no direct statements on the subject.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. The Outsider as a minor god in Typhon's pantheon \nis a play on the \"Unknown God\" of Acts chapter 17. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "D'oh! I can't believe I missed that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... Hence, for Wolfe, as for orthodox Christianity, pagan\nreligions are a mixture of awareness of the truth of an \nOutside Creator mingled and corrupted by a \"scale of being\" \nor \"gnostic\" or \"emanation-hierarchical\" view of reality.\nThus, Chapter religion has some of both in it. But what is\nhappening is not a \"baptizing\" of prior paganism, but an\nextrication from it. It is a mistake to read early and \neven medieval Christianity as \"baptizing\" pagan forms. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is too sweeping a statement ... or, perhaps, \none that depends on a specific interpretation of \"baptizing,\" \ndifferent from what many writers mean when they say that,\ne.g., Christmas \"baptises\" the Saturnalia. It does not, in \nthe sense that it does not simply take the Saturnalia and\nsubstitute Christian names and concepts and otherwise keep \nthe Saturnalia intact. It does, in the sense that baptism \nis in part an act of exoricism, in which the spirit of sin\nis driven from the baptised person, to be replaced in their\nheart by the Holy Spirit of God. In other words, if \"baptism\"\nis perceived (as, for example, Paul perceives it) as nothing \nless than a complete transformation -- a rebirth, a new \ncreation -- then that is precisely what happens to the\nSaturnalia in the institution of the Feast of the Nativity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "6. Greco-Roman gods and myths were not much different \nfrom Semitic/Canaanite ones, and really, Nordic ones \nwere not much different either. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is _so_ much \"point of view\" to be taken into account\nhere ... if you take the point of view of someone like Graves\nor Campbell, you find all manner of similarity, and uncover\nthe Deep Psychic Structures of \"all\" religions. If you take\nthe point of view of someone like Lewis, you perceive that\nthey are quite different in orientation -- that the Nordic\nmyths, for example, are deeply pessimistic in a way that\nneither the Greek nor the Middle-eastern myths are. According\nto the Norse myths, the monsters will win in the end, and\nheroism is simply a matter of dying well. Middle-eastern\nmyth believed that the world was created well but became\ndamaged or flawed in some ur-event; most Middle-eastern\nreligious ritual was aimed at bringing back the prelapsarian\ntime, or at least making the present more like it. (Israelite \nreligion, as was usual for Israel, took up this theme and \ntransformed it into something quite different -- yes, the \nworld had Fallen, but no amount of ritual was going to undo \nthat; you had to live in the world as it was. Religion was\nnot aimed at bringing back the golden past but at present\nblessings.) I don't really see _any_ of these attitudes in\n\"classical\" myth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think sacrificial rituals were much different \neither. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, the purpose seems to have a lot to do with it ...\ndid the Greeks use sacrifice to fortell the future? Their\noracular methodologies seemed to involve counting birds or \nlistening to stoned/crazy/inspired (pick and choose) women \nin a cave. Scrying by entrails of a sacrificial victim is\nvery Middle-eastern." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think we have to debate much \"which\" of these\nmyths Wolfe is using. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I'm guilty of this, I suppose I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "7. Wolfe did use Qabbalah some in New Sun: Yesodh and\nBriahh; though there he merely picked up some words to\nuse in connection with an essentially \"Catholic\" universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there's a bit more to it than that, but you're\nessentially right ... NS literalizes Kabbalistic concepts\nin the context of a universe in which Catholic Christianity\nis true. What I've been arguing is that NS does the same \nfor Gnosticism, though at much greater length, and in a way\nmore central to the concerns of the book than Kabbalism is\nto NS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I might put words in his mouth, I would suggest that he\nis saying that some kind of gnostic/polytheistic\nunderstanding of the universe is what everybody naturally\nthinks until or unless they come to a Christian \"creational\"\nview of the universe; and that the psychological process of\nmoving from the former to the latter does not happen overnight,\nbut takes time. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well said. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Silk's \"enlightenment\" does not mean he is moving\n\"up\" a gnostic hierarchy into transcendence, but that \nhe is moving \"out\" of a gnostic view of reality altogether,\nand can now see these \"gods\" for what they really are: mere\ncreatures, even if powerful ones. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes/no: Silk's \"enlightenment\" is (I think) very much a\ngnosis, but one could make the same claim for the calls\nof Abram and Moses. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "9. Finally, since this came up, the Calvinistic doctrine of \npredestination (speaking as a Calvinistic theologian) is not \nmuch different from Augustine's and Aquinas's. Whoever\ndescribed the \"two eye\" perspective -- from within time and\nfrom outside of time -- pretty well described it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'twas I. Thank you. (I tend to think that a _lot_ of\ntheological debates can be dissolved by remembering that\nGod is infinite and eternal, and broadening the context\nof discussion accordingly ...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Calvinistic confessions of faith state that this is \na matter that should be handled very gingerly and carefully,\nsince to try to think about it very much is to fall into the\nsin of playing god. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whereas the Catholic church would say that theology is \n\"faith seeking understanding\" -- as long as we avoid the \npride of thinking that we have ever plumbed the depths, that \nwe have actually comprehended God's mind, the attempt to \nunderstand what we can is a worthy one." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-11-04T18:35:42+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Josh wrote:\nThere's one big difference between the Jewish and the \nChristian way of looking at things. Judaism says, do the \nright thing because it is the right thing to do. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, a close reading of the Hebrew scriptures shows\nthat from end to end, Law, Prophets, and Writings (\"TaNaK\")\npromise blessings for \"doing the right thing,\" from caring\nfor the widows-and-orphans to maintining cultic purity, and \ncurses for, well, not doing the right thing. The idea of \nHeaven-and-Hell do not enter into it (well, maybe a little, \nvery late, in that the very latest Writings seem to suggest\na belief that God has care and concern for the dead in \nSheol); the blessings are land, prosperity, and descendents, \nwhile the curses are poverty, infertility, and death. \n\nInterestingly, the religion of the Chapter is much more\nconcerned with the afterlife than Temple Judaism ever was\n-- Judaism, unlike almost all its neighbors, seems to have\nbeen almost unconcerned with the afterlife; Greeks,\nEgyptians, and most Middle-eastern religions all had plenty\nto say on the subject. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christianity doesn't really say do the right thing so that\nyou will go to Heaven: salvation is a gift of grace, not\nthe result of works. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes/no: this is another of those distinctions that dissolves\nwhen the context is broadened. Faith, which is a gift (\"gift\nof grace\" is redundant ... look it up), is the one and only\nway of salvation. But \"faith\" is actually a very ill-defined\nterm, and some of the NT writers make it clear that \"faith\"\ndoes not exist without works, that a real faith produces \nworks in the faithful. One modern writer (alas, I have lost\nher name) summed it up in the aphorism: \"We are saved by\nfaith alone, but the faith by which we are saved is never\nalone.\"\n\nWolfe, I think, would agree; Silk's enlightenment leads to\nconcrete actions, even if some of them are the result of\nhis misunderstanding what the God wants from him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have to say that I think that this whole focus on \nGnosticism in the Book Of The Long Sun is sort of a \ndistraction from the really more interesting things that Gene \nWolfe is doing with these books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know about them being more interesting, but they\nare interesting indeed and there are many, many more of \nthem." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-11-04T19:43:43+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:22 PM 11/4/2002, Dan'l wrote:\nNutria,\n\nIt's good to hear your comments, and to the very large extent\nthat we seem to be in agreement I take this as a point in\nfavor of what I've been saying -- not merely because you are,\nas always, astute, but because you are this list's other\nvocally professing Christian; I think that our agreement\nsuggests that what we are seeing may well be close to what\nWolfe, also a vocally professing Christian, intends, in that\nwe're coming from a similar world view to his." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks. Just a couple of quickies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pythagoras and Plato, certainly; I'm not as sure about\nAristotle, who leaned almost to empiricism at times, or\nat least this is the impression I get from my limited\nreading of his work (lecture notes, whatever you want\nto call it)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " To be sure. But I dimly recall from college days that Aristotle \nreplied to a letter from one of his former students, who expressed concern, \nthat none of the really deep and esoteric stuff had been put down in his \nlecture notes. All that good stuff had been preserved for the inner circle. \nBut I'm going from ancient memory here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this is too sweeping a statement ... or, perhaps,\none that depends on a specific interpretation of \"baptizing,\"\ndifferent from what many writers mean when they say that,\ne.g., Christmas \"baptises\" the Saturnalia. It does not, in\nthe sense that it does not simply take the Saturnalia and\nsubstitute Christian names and concepts and otherwise keep\nthe Saturnalia intact. It does, in the sense that baptism\nis in part an act of exoricism," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Okay. I was not thinking in that particular sense, but in the \npopular and milder view of what \"baptizing something\" means. Point granted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is _so_ much \"point of view\" to be taken into account\nhere ... if you take the point of view of someone like Graves\nor Campbell, you find all manner of similarity, and uncover\nthe Deep Psychic Structures of \"all\" religions. If you take\nthe point of view of someone like Lewis, you perceive that\nthey are quite different in orientation -- that the Nordic\nmyths, for example, are deeply pessimistic in a way that\nneither the Greek nor the Middle-eastern myths are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Right. My bad. Should have left the Nordics out of it.\n\nThanks.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-11-04T23:38:48+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nNutria," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3. Typhon is, IMO, much like the Demiurge, in that \nhe forms his Whorl out of preexisting matter. Pas\nrules this Whorl, so he is not a \"demiurge\" but\nmerely a \"god.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, this is a distinction I had failed to make ...\nsomehow, I have this tendency to think of Typhon and\nPas as one entity. My bad. With this distinction, the\nanalogy/allegory becomes much clearer ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So when they say \"Pas made the whorl\", they mean Typhon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the Outsider, is just that: outside of it all.\nHe is the Creator, not a Prime Mover, and the cosmos \nis not made out of his substance. He is outside of\nit, not the highest part of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Part of the issue, of course, is that the Outsider is \nOutside because the gods of the Whorl deliberately\nshut him out -- tried to erase all memory of him when\nthey reprogrammed the original Cargo. But memory of the\n\"long sun Whorl\" religion, in trace form, remained, and\nbecame part of the Writings, in the few references to\nthe Outsider ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there textual evidence that that's the origin of the Outsider?\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "6. Greco-Roman gods and myths were not much different \nfrom Semitic/Canaanite ones, and really, Nordic ones \nwere not much different either. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is _so_ much \"point of view\" to be taken into account\nhere ... if you take the point of view of someone like Graves\nor Campbell, you find all manner of similarity, and uncover\nthe Deep Psychic Structures of \"all\" religions. If you take\nthe point of view of someone like Lewis, you perceive that\nthey are quite different in orientation -- that the Nordic\nmyths, for example, are deeply pessimistic in a way that\nneither the Greek nor the Middle-eastern myths are. According\nto the Norse myths, the monsters will win in the end, and\nheroism is simply a matter of dying well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not unknown in the Greek myths, though they don't have such a\nstatement about the fate of the world (as far as I know). There are\nsimilarities that they don't share with \"all religions\": both the Greek\nand Norse pantheons are ruled by father gods, and both have somewhat\nshadowy earlier gods (Titans and Vanir). And there are differences. It\ndepends on what's important to you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Middle-eastern\nmyth believed that the world was created well but became\ndamaged or flawed in some ur-event; most Middle-eastern\nreligious ritual was aimed at bringing back the prelapsarian\ntime, or at least making the present more like it. (Israelite \nreligion, as was usual for Israel, took up this theme and \ntransformed it into something quite different -- yes, the \nworld had Fallen, but no amount of ritual was going to undo \nthat; you had to live in the world as it was. Religion was\nnot aimed at bringing back the golden past but at present\nblessings.) I don't really see _any_ of these attitudes in\n\"classical\" myth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see a belief in Judaism that the world has fallen. Adam and Eve\nwere punished, partly by being expelled from Paradise, but the world\nwasn't changed. (Their descendants didn't become sinful either.) And in\nthe only other Middle Eastern myth I know, that of Gilgamesh, Paradise\nstill exists and is reachable by ship.\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If I might put words in his\n[Wolfe's]\nmouth, I would suggest that he\nis saying that some kind of gnostic/polytheistic\nunderstanding of the universe is what everybody naturally\nthinks until or unless they come to a Christian \"creational\"\nview of the universe; and that the psychological process of\nmoving from the former to the latter does not happen overnight,\nbut takes time. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well said. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hope he doesn't believe that! Polytheistic, yes, but not gnostic. If\nwe can guess what everyone \"naturally\" thinks, it would be animism. The\nanimistic religions I have \"a little learning\" about, mostly those of the\nNavajo and Tewa, are far more this-world oriented than any kind of\nChristianity, and in this sense more or less the opposite of (most?)\nGnosticism.\n...\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-11-05T01:50:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry F. responded to Dan'l and Nutria's debate:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "mouth, I would suggest that he\nis saying that some kind of gnostic/polytheistic\nunderstanding of the universe is what everybody naturally\nthinks until or unless they come to a Christian \"creational\"\nview of the universe; and that the psychological process of\nmoving from the former to the latter does not happen overnight,\nbut takes time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well said." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hope he doesn't believe that! Polytheistic, yes, but not gnostic. If\nwe can guess what everyone \"naturally\" thinks, it would be animism. The\nanimistic religions I have \"a little learning\" about, mostly those of the\nNavajo and Tewa, are far more this-world oriented than any kind of\nChristianity, and in this sense more or less the opposite of (most?)\nGnosticism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(This is so parenthetical that I'm putting it in parens, but two more that\nmany know something about (there are hundreds of small ones, mostly tribal)\nare Rome before they adopted \"Greek ways\" in their drive to world\ndominance--but they always kept their household \"lares and penates,\" which\nLatro dimly recalls--and Japanese Shinto, which was actively promoted in the\n20th century as a way of keeping citizens loyal to the Emperor instead of\nsome important--or imported--god. I would go along with that \"this-world\"\nguess, though I also think it is \"natural\" to be awed by the heavens and to\nhave some \"other-world\" feeling that way.)\n\nGnostic feeling, however, is not polytheistic. The Alien God is definitely\nsingle; the archons stand in for angels, the Demiurge is specifically\ndescribed as an abortion, or mistake, and certainly not to be worshiped;\nSophia is not worshiped. What it has in common with other monotheistic\nreligions is the \"knowledge\" of the Way, the Truth and the Life and that\nthose who believe [in this] shall be saved. Tough on the rest of you. This\nis not the religion of the Whorls, which is based on Hellenism. The\nNeighbors\\inhumi dichotomy in, I think, specifically taken from early\nsyncretic Christianity. The notion that Wolfe has borrowed, quite\nsuccessfully, from Gnosticism is that of the Demiurge (and I don't know why\nsome of you are making a Typhon/Pas split--Wolfe doesn't in his interviews).\n\n(Back in parens: Gnosticism is not monolithic, of course. The Mandaean\nversion had a wonderful space-opera mythology that John Crowley paid tribute\nto in his invented comic-strip, \"Little Enosh: Lost Among the Worlds.\")\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-11-05T12:33:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:50 PM 11/4/2002, Alga wrote:\n(This is so parenthetical that I'm putting it in parens, but two more that\nmany know something about (there are hundreds of small ones, mostly tribal)\nare Rome before they adopted \"Greek ways\" in their drive to world\ndominance--but they always kept their household \"lares and penates,\" which\nLatro dimly recalls--and Japanese Shinto, which was actively promoted in the\n20th century as a way of keeping citizens loyal to the Emperor instead of\nsome important--or imported--god. I would go along with that \"this-world\"\nguess, though I also think it is \"natural\" to be awed by the heavens and to\nhave some \"other-world\" feeling that way.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " What you tend to find in all \"pagan\" religions is something like this:\n\na. Nature gods of streams, woods, etc. Little local gods. Totem tribal spirits.\nb. Often these are linked with ancestors, who have become spirits somehow. \nHousehold gods. Lares and Penates. Totem poles and masks.\nc. Sky gods, associated with government. The big gods. And medium gods \nassociated with particular cities. Vesta in Rome.\nd. Some kind of \"god behind the gods\" with whom we have no contact. (Though \nthere are those who question how much the \"great spirit\" really exists for \n\"pagan\" people.)\n\n In any culture, it becomes a matter of emphasis. Small tribes go \nmostly with local gods and ancestors. Large citified or imperial cultures \nmove more into sky/government gods -- their horizon has been enlarged. But \neven the things in the sky are mostly animal constellations, though they \nget linked up with more humaniform gods \"behind\" them.\n So, I agree that the Romans were influenced by the Greek pantheon, \nbut I think it would not be completely correct to say that they did not \nhave something pretty similar before they began to move out into the world.\n\nParenthetically yours,\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-11-05T12:39:30+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 05:38 PM 11/4/2002, you wrote:\nMiddle-eastern\nmyth believed that the world was created well but became\ndamaged or flawed in some ur-event; most Middle-eastern\nreligious ritual was aimed at bringing back the prelapsarian\ntime, or at least making the present more like it. (Israelite\nreligion, as was usual for Israel, took up this theme and\ntransformed it into something quite different -- yes, the\nworld had Fallen, but no amount of ritual was going to undo\nthat; you had to live in the world as it was. Religion was\nnot aimed at bringing back the golden past but at present\nblessings.) I don't really see _any_ of these attitudes in\n\"classical\" myth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see a belief in Judaism that the world has fallen. Adam and Eve\nwere punished, partly by being expelled from Paradise, but the world\nwasn't changed. (Their descendants didn't become sinful either.) And in\nthe only other Middle Eastern myth I know, that of Gilgamesh, Paradise\nstill exists and is reachable by ship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The world is not fallen in the sense of being sinful, but is it \"under a \ncurse for the sake of humanity\" so that it does not cooperate with sinful \nhumanity. Hence, only as humanity shapes up will the world return toward \nparadise. The issue in Middle Eastern religion can from this perspective be \nboiled down to this: Does the world get renewed as a result of bargaining \nwith various gods, and/or as a result of doing rituals right, and/or as a \nresult of searching for paradise; OR does the world get renewed as a result \nof the spiritual/moral renewal of humanity (the Jewish/Christian answer)?\n I would suggest that as time went along, and thought matured, the \nformer answer devolved into gnosticism: the world is cursed in itself, and \nthus a bad place. The early Church had to answer that the world is good in \nitself, and that \"only man is vile.\" A \"new earth\" is coming, but only when \nhumanity is redeemed and resurrected.\n\nFWIW\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-06T02:41:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 11/4/02 7:50 PM, Alice K. Turner at aturner6 at nyc.rr.com wrote:\n(and I don't know why\nsome of you are making a Typhon/Pas split--Wolfe doesn't in his interviews)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whether or not he makes it in his interviews, it is clearly present in the\nbooks. Typhon is the ruler of Urth who built the Whorl; Pas is a copy of\nTyphon's personality that was downloaded into a computer. One could say\nthat Pas is Typhon in the sense that Silk-in-Mainframe is Silk; but the\nentity that ordered the Whorl to be built was killed by Severian on Urth.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-06T02:41:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 11/1/02 10:24 AM, James Wynn at crushtv at HotPOP.com wrote:\nWell, we do know that in the Long Sun, the Outsider is the acknowledged\ncreator of humans (from mud) in the Chrasmological Writings (I think this is\nin LS 2)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd forgotten this; which means that the analogy between Pas and the\nDemiurge, and the case for a gnostic influence on the Long Sun books, are\neven weaker than I thought. I see no reason not to regard the \"cosmology\"\nof the Long Sun as a product of Wolfe's views on the existence of pagan\n\"gods\" combined with the generation-starship trope, with any resemblance to\nGnosticism being accidental.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-11-06T19:59:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- James Jordan wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " What you tend to find in all \"pagan\" religions is something\nlike this:\n\na. Nature gods of streams, woods, etc. Little local gods. Totem tribal\nspirits.\nb. Often these are linked with ancestors, who have become spirits\nsomehow. \nHousehold gods. Lares and Penates. Totem poles and masks.\nc. Sky gods, associated with government. The big gods. And medium gods \nassociated with particular cities. Vesta in Rome.\nd. Some kind of \"god behind the gods\" with whom we have no contact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think \"all 'pagan' religions\" is an exaggeration. Probably\nmostly civilized cultures have \"big gods\" associated with government." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Though \nthere are those who question how much the \"great spirit\" really exists\nfor \n\"pagan\" people.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've talked with one Native American woman who was very strongly\nagainst the ideas of one God and one Truth, but I don't know whether\nthat opposition was part of her tribe's traditions or more a\nresponse to the damage done to them by monotheists." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " In any culture, it becomes a matter of emphasis. Small tribes\ngo \nmostly with local gods and ancestors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, but I might say \"only\" rather than \"mostly\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Large citified or imperial cultures \nmove more into sky/government gods -- their horizon has been enlarged." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And subjugation, whether of foreigners or their own peasants, becomes\nmore important to them.\n...\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-07T23:36:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 11/4/02 12:22 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes at ddanehy at siebel.com wrote:\nPart of the issue, of course, is that the Outsider is\nOutside because the gods of the Whorl deliberately\nshut him out -- tried to erase all memory of him when\nthey reprogrammed the original Cargo. But memory of the\n\"long sun Whorl\" religion, in trace form, remained, and\nbecame part of the Writings, in the few references to\nthe Outsider ... This implies, incidentally, that the\nWritings were not presented to the people of Viron\nalready-written by Scylla or some other god, but were\nset down by them in the early days ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see some problems with this:\n\n1) Did Typhon, then, fail to provide scriptures for his invented religion?\nIf so, why? If not, what happened to them?\n\n2) Iirc, the Writings were a melange of quotes from a variety of sources;\nJames Jordan mentioned \"Marcus Aurelius in the Chrasmological writings\" in\nanother post. I could see Wolfe positing that traces of the true religion\nsurvived all efforts by Typhon to erase it; that he would have posited the\nsame thing for Marcus Aurelius seems less likely.\n\n3) Assuming that you are correct about the Writings' origin, if Pas et al\ndid not want people to worship or remember the Outsider, why didn't they\nannounce that the parts of the Writings mentioning the Outsider were\nheretical and should be removed?\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-11-08T00:55:56+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Adam Stephanides [mailto:adamsteph at earthlink.net] \nSent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 3:36 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe\n\n\non 11/4/02 12:22 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes at ddanehy at siebel.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Part of the issue, of course, is that the Outsider is\nOutside because the gods of the Whorl deliberately\nshut him out -- tried to erase all memory of him when\nthey reprogrammed the original Cargo. But memory of the\n\"long sun Whorl\" religion, in trace form, remained, and \nbecame part of \nthe Writings, in the few references to the Outsider ... " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This implies, \nincidentally, that the Writings were not presented to the people of \nViron already-written by Scylla or some other god, but were\nset down by them in the early days ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) Did Typhon, then, fail to provide scriptures for his \ninvented religion? If so, why? If not, what happened to them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If he had, you'd think there would have been just the one \nreligion, instead of the \"Vironese Faith,\" the Islam-like\nfaith of the -- oh, darn, I'm blanking on the city's name \n-- the Hindu-ish worship of Gaon, etc. Or are you suggesting\nthat he provided a different religion for each and every \ncity? I mean, sure, it's possible that he might have done\nso, but it doesn't seem like the way a megalomaniac does\nthings.\n\nOTOH, he does seem to have individualized the cities themselves\nsomewhat.\n\nI'm imagining the reprogrammed Cargo waking up on the\n_Whorl_, finding the Windows in whatever sort of temples\nor manteions or whatever their city has, and receiving \nThe Revelation Of Pas in which he sets forth his, well,\nstanding orders. Nobody writes them down right away, and\nthe religion in each city tends to fall into the old patterns\nof its people, mingled with random badly-erased memories, \netc., and eventually written down in the Writings and \nwhatever each of the other cities write it down in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Iirc, the Writings were a melange of quotes from a variety \nof sources; James Jordan mentioned \"Marcus Aurelius in the \nChrasmological writings\" in another post. I could see Wolfe \npositing that traces of the true religion survived all \nefforts by Typhon to erase it; that he would have posited the \nsame thing for Marcus Aurelius seems less likely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, at least some of the quotes we have from the Writings\nare indeed from various sources. (I'm pretty sure I recall\nsomething from Isaiah, too.) But I'm not sure that we should\nread all that much into it -- there are at least two good\nreasons for it to be the way it is:\n\nA) It is (or contains) remembered scraps -- as you say, a \n melange -- of stuff that didn't get wiped properly; or,\nB) Why should Wolfe, who doesn't bother to make up new words,\n write a new Word when there's lots of good stuff lying\n around in public domain that will sound ancient and holy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) Assuming that you are correct about the Writings' origin, \nif Pas et al did not want people to worship or remember the \nOutsider, why didn't they announce that the parts of the \nWritings mentioning the Outsider were heretical and should\nbe removed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll answer that question with two questions:\n\nWhy assume that he cares? The purpose _from Pas's point of\nview_ wasn't to shut out the One True God; he doesn't believe\nin any One True God. His purpose was to wipe out the memories \nof all other religions (which are equal in his eyes, in that\nthey don't serve his puropse) so _he_ can be God. That wiping\nout works imperfectly, and results in all sorts of accretions \nto his \"state religion,\" but the Outsider is -- to him -- \njust one more \"minor god.\" \n\nWhy in the _Whorl_ do you imagine that Pas has ever bothered\nto _read_ the Chrasmological Writings -- I rather doubt he\nhas, I rather doubt he _cares_. He's getting worship and\nobedience (right up to the point where Echidna and the sprats\noff him); he's happy as a clam." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-11-08T08:40:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/11/2002 23:36:17 Adam Stephanides wrote:\non 11/4/02 12:22 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes at ddanehy at siebel.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Part of the issue, of course, is that the Outsider is\nOutside because the gods of the Whorl deliberately\nshut him out -- tried to erase all memory of him when\nthey reprogrammed the original Cargo. But memory of the\n\"long sun Whorl\" religion, in trace form, remained, and\nbecame part of the Writings, in the few references to\nthe Outsider ... This implies, incidentally, that the\nWritings were not presented to the people of Viron\nalready-written by Scylla or some other god, but were\nset down by them in the early days ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see some problems with this:\n\n1) Did Typhon, then, fail to provide scriptures for his invented\nreligion?\nIf so, why? If not, what happened to them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't see that the religious environment set up to support Pas and his\nfamilly as gods of the Whorl could have worked in any fashion unless Pas\ndid indeed provide the founding scripture.\n\nDid the original inhbaitants not have their memories adjusted to make it\nappear as if the Whorl were their proper home? To have memory of a\nreligion without its support structure - scripture - would have left a\nhole very damaging to that preparation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Iirc, the Writings were a melange of quotes from a variety of sources;\nJames Jordan mentioned \"Marcus Aurelius in the Chrasmological writings\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "in" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "another post. I could see Wolfe positing that traces of the true\nreligion\nsurvived all efforts by Typhon to erase it; that he would have posited\nthe\nsame thing for Marcus Aurelius seems less likely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Religious writings that evolve retain traces of their precursors, often\nwhole tranches verbatim. The same is generally true of attempts to create\nnew things - viz almost any of the extant cults around the world. It\nseems to me that Pas/Typhon was constructing a tool for control as a\npragmatic exercise not one of convistion. He, or those he set to the\ntask, would be more likely than not to crib what existed where it seemed\nto serve the purpose. That traces of other things remained to be found\nshould be no surprise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) Assuming that you are correct about the Writings' origin, if Pas et al\ndid not want people to worship or remember the Outsider, why didn't they\nannounce that the parts of the Writings mentioning the Outsider were\nheretical and should be removed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't find it likely that Typhon believed in deity as the writings\npresent it. He'd know of the galactic powers and possibly those that\nstand above them but would he give credence to some godhead such as the\nOutsider when in Typhon's world (personally and politically) I doubt he\nwould admit to there being any power stronger than he.\n\nThus there would be no motive to remove possible references while\nprepareing the writings and once the Whorl was running to have declared\npart of the sacred writings heretical would have allowed the entry of\ndoubt, the possibility that other parts might not be as sacred or as\nnecessary as the worshipers were supposed to believe. Such a move could\npotentially have been extremely damaging to what might perhaps be the gods\nof Manframe's most powerful tool of social control.\n\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }