{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3491", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3491, "subject": "PEACE: Smart's relatives", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-10-18T22:42:43+00:00", "last": "2002-10-20T13:48:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-10-18T22:42:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: Smart's relatives", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm re-reading PEACE now, taking a section per day in a Weer-ish sort of\nway. What a neat book!\n\nAnyway, the question of Smart having closer relatives than Weer. Yes,\nSmart does talk about the help he had from relatives, but that was when he\nwas 20-something, and it is not likely that those relatives were younger --\nrather, that they were older.\n\nLet's say Smart was born in 1900, when life expectancy for a man was around\n48 (iirc), and died in 1963 at age 63. Any relative who was old enough to\nhelp him when he was 20-something would be 70 or 80-something after he died!\n\nSmart seems like a self-made man (many ways similar to Baldanders). If\nany of those relatives had managed to put him onto a job, he probably would\nhave maintained ties to those relatives; but since they didn't, he doesn't.\nHe found Mr. Tilly on his own, after riding milk trains; he found Olivia on\nhis own, with some debt to Professor Peacock who knew her/courted her\nfirst. From my figuring above there could be three generations of\nrelatives that he knows nothing about, and likewise, those myriads of\nSmarties don't know a fraction about the factory that even a cold house\nworker knows, let alone a long-term engineer like Weer.\n\nSmart knows that Olivia loved Weer. Smart knows that Weer is the last of\nthe Weers. Smart knows that he couldn't have made the factory without\nOlivia's help. However unfriendly Smart has been toward Weer over the last\n25 years of Smart's life (make that 35 years!), it seems to me that leaving\nthe factory to Weer is in his best interests as an owner, and in his best\ninterests as a tribute to his wife and her family (i.e., the family network\nthat was able to further his career).\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\n29 copies of \"Snake's-hands\" until OP!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-10-19T07:17:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Smart's relatives", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, the question of Smart having closer relatives than Weer. Yes,\nSmart does talk about the help he had from relatives, but that was when he\nwas 20-something, and it is not likely that those relatives were younger --\nrather, that they were older.\n\nLet's say Smart was born in 1900, when life expectancy for a man was around\n48 (iirc), and died in 1963 at age 63. Any relative who was old enough to\nhelp him when he was 20-something would be 70 or 80-something after he\ndied!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those \"cousins\" he mentioned would have been his own age." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Smart seems like a self-made man (many ways similar to Baldanders). If\nany of those relatives had managed to put him onto a job, he probably would\nhave maintained ties to those relatives; but since they didn't, he doesn't.\nHe found Mr. Tilly on his own, after riding milk trains; he found Olivia on\nhis own, with some debt to Professor Peacock who knew her/courted her\nfirst. From my figuring above there could be three generations of\nrelatives that he knows nothing about, and likewise, those myriads of\nSmarties don't know a fraction about the factory that even a cold house\nworker knows, let alone a long-term engineer like Weer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We know almost nothing about Smart's life beyond the few autobiographical\ndetails he divulges in the course of telling the Tilly tale. We know from\nnine-year-old Den that Smart couldn't have been much more than twenty-five\nwhen he told that story. If we assume that the details are true (and if we\ndon't, where are we?!), then somehow _both_ of Smart's parents conspired to\ndie in the few years since he graduated from college (and I've brought this\nup before). To me that's a red flag; too many people died too conveniently\nto Smart's advantage--his parents, Tilly, Olivia, and possibly Peacock.\n\nHow is it that Smart even knew Peacock? The most obvious connection is the\nuniversity at which Peacock taught. Smart had likely gone to school there.\nThe university was just thirty-five miles from Cassionsville, and Smart grew\nup in the area. We know this because he said he didn't want to buy Tilly's\ndrugstore because he \"wanted to get back closer to the farm\" (148). Assuming\nSmart had no siblings, his parent's death left him owning a chunk of real\nestate that was worth a tidy sum of money to him in the go-go 1920s. That\nhas to be a source of his start-up money for the plant; Smart was no farmer.\nSo those relatives were not \"distant\", geographically.\n\nBTW, why would Smart have assumed that Peacock might have told Olivia that\nTilly died, before Smart had even met her? (148)\n\nMore than once in the course of the Tilly tale, Smart remarks upon how\nhandsomely Tilly had paid him. He's a liar. He knew Tilly less than a week,\nand I doubt that he was paid by the day, because he mentions a \"salary\"\n(151). I doubt that Smart ever collected a nickel from him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Smart knows that Olivia loved Weer. Smart knows that Weer is the last of\nthe Weers. Smart knows that he couldn't have made the factory without\nOlivia's help. However unfriendly Smart has been toward Weer over the last\n25 years of Smart's life (make that 35 years!), it seems to me that leaving\nthe factory to Weer is in his best interests as an owner, and in his best\ninterests as a tribute to his wife and her family (i.e., the family network\nthat was able to further his career)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not so sure Olivia loved Weer. The first page of the second section\ndoesn't read that way to me. She was stuck with him and tried to make the\nbest of it. And I have a much darker view of Smart. He was a mercenary,\ncold-blooded s.o.b. who used people for his own ends. I don't think he had a\nphilanthropic bone in his body. When he sold Olivia's house it didn't become\nthe Olivia Weer-Smart Memorial Library. And if he thought well at all of his\nnephew, he would have advanced his career during all those years, grooming\nhim as his successor.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-10-19T15:18:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Smart's relatives", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy quoted me and wrote:\nLet's say Smart was born in 1900, when life expectancy for a man was around\n48 (iirc), and died in 1963 at age 63. Any relative who was old enough to\nhelp him when he was 20-something would be 70 or 80-something after he\ndied!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Those \"cousins\" he mentioned would have been his own age." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and if still alive they would be past their life-expectancy age of 50.\nAs for Smart's parents sudden death, if they were in their 20s when they\nconceived him, then they would be in their mid-40s when he went to Florida.\nRather close to the estimated lifespan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How is it that Smart even knew Peacock? The most obvious connection is the\nuniversity at which Peacock taught. Smart had likely gone to school there.\nThe university was just thirty-five miles from Cassionsville, and Smart grew\nup in the area. We know this because he said he didn't want to buy Tilly's\ndrugstore because he \"wanted to get back closer to the farm\" (148)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe. With geography, \"closer\" is relative with regard to scale. He was\nin Florida at the time! The Smart farm could be in the New England states\nor in Illinois and he would still be closer to it in Ohio than he was in\nFlorida.\n\nJanet Turner, ala Cleo the Seal Girl, has an accent that places her in\nPennsylvania or Ohio. She is from the multi-state region, maybe even from\nthe same state of Ohio." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Assuming\nSmart had no siblings, his parent's death left him owning a chunk of real\nestate that was worth a tidy sum of money to him in the go-go 1920s." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but he must have had siblings, no? He mentions \"in-laws,\" after all,\namong those relatives trying to help him get started." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That\nhas to be a source of his start-up money for the plant; Smart was no farmer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought we were agreed that Smart could not have started up the factory\nwithout Olivia: \"her\" money, her brother's money, her family's influence in\nthe town." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BTW, why would Smart have assumed that Peacock might have told Olivia that\nTilly died, before Smart had even met her? (148)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because Tilly's death is the circumstance that brings Smart, out of a job,\nall the way from Florida to Ohio. Smart has just arrived in town; he is\nwearing a suit and shirt that he just bought at Macafee's department store.\nHe is friends with Peacock (just as he wrote letters to his professors\nlooking for a job, he wrote to Peacock, whether Peacock was his professor\nor just a friend at college -- and Peacock probably mentioned Bledsoe's\ndrugstore), he knows that Peacock is courting Olivia, he knows that Olivia\nhas invited Smart to the birthday party (of Macaffee at Olivia's house --\nvery Auntie Mame!) at Peacock's request. Thus, he knows that Peacock has\nspoken of him to Olivia, and supposes that Peacock might have mentioned\nthis detail." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Smart knows that Olivia loved Weer. Smart knows that Weer is the last of\nthe Weers. Smart knows that he couldn't have made the factory without\nOlivia's help. However unfriendly Smart has been toward Weer over the last\n25 years of Smart's life (make that 35 years!), it seems to me that leaving\nthe factory to Weer is in his best interests as an owner, and in his best\ninterests as a tribute to his wife and her family (i.e., the family network\nthat was able to further his career)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not so sure Olivia loved Weer. The first page of the second section\ndoesn't read that way to me. She was stuck with him and tried to make the\nbest of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I agree she was stuck with him and tried to make the best of it, I do\nnot think this cancels out any familial love, or the possibility of the\nsame.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-10-19T15:46:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Smart's relatives", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have been kind of out of things for the past few weeks, but I will just\ndrop a note about life expectancy:\n\n\nIt has **always** been the case that someone who reaches 20 can expect to\nget to 60. This is so now in very poor countries. Life expectancies are\naverages, not limits.\n\nWhat has changed is the proportion of people who get to puberty. There used\nto be a *lot* of children dying before reproductive age. Fewer now.\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Michael Andre-Driussi\" \nTo: \nSent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 4:18 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) PEACE: Smart's relatives\nRoy quoted me and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Let's say Smart was born in 1900, when life expectancy for a man was\naround\n48 (iirc), and died in 1963 at age 63. Any relative who was old enough\nto\nhelp him when he was 20-something would be 70 or 80-something after he\ndied!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2002-10-19T17:37:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Smart's relatives", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. Lackey writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More than once in the course of the Tilly tale, Smart remarks upon how \nhandsomely Tilly had paid him. He's a liar. He knew Tilly less than a week,\nand I doubt that he was paid by the day, because he mentions a \n\"salary\" (151). I doubt that Smart ever collected a nickel from him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree he's a liar, but I think that's not all he's lying about. I think \nSmart lived with Tilly for at least six months. Correct me if I'm wrong \nabout either Gulf coast weather or seasonal fruit, but in the Tilly tale, \noranges are locally in season (and thus it's winter) and it's 90 degrees \nafter midnight (and thus it's summer). Wolfe certainly knows about \norange season (recall oranges in Den's Christmas stocking) and also \nabout Gulf coast weather (Wolfe went to college in Texas). I don't \nthink this is an oversight ... I think it's a deliberate clue, as was \nHannah's supposed trip to Boston in the diary written by Gold. Tilly \ndied at least six months after Smart arrived, this makes Smart the \nchief suspect in Tilly's poisoning.\n\nOf course, Smart is likely lying about the handsome salary as well, \nto explain where all the money he got from taking over Mr. Tilly's \ncarney medicine business came from. After all, even if he kept the \nbooks in the pharmacy's regular business honestly, I don't see why\nhe would have kept records of having prescribed illegal medicines. \n\n- Stone Ox " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-10-20T13:48:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Smart's relatives", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 10/19/02 2:17 AM, Roy C. Lackey at rclackey at stic.net wrote:\nTo me that's a red flag; too many people died too conveniently\nto Smart's advantage--his parents, Tilly, Olivia, and possibly Peacock." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For his parents, see below. As for Tilly, Smart couldn't have known that\nTilly's relatives would keep him on at the store; he'd have had greater\nreason to think Tilly's death would leave him jobless again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Smart grew\nup in the area. We know this because he said he didn't want to buy Tilly's\ndrugstore because he \"wanted to get back closer to the farm\" (148)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Get back closer to the farm\" is an ambiguous phrase; it could simply mean\nthat he wanted to live in a more rural area. If he were specifically\ntalking about his parents' farm, he'd be more likely to say something like\n\"wanted to go home,\" imo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Assuming\nSmart had no siblings, his parent's death left him owning a chunk of real\nestate that was worth a tidy sum of money to him in the go-go 1920s." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if Smart's parents did own a farm, there's no reason to think Smart\nwould have gotten rich by inheriting it; the 1920s were not \"go-go\" years\nfor agriculture." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So those relatives were not \"distant\", geographically." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if his parents did live in the area, his surviving relatives at the\ntime of his death need not have.\n\nA couple of minor points in response to mantis:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, but he must have had siblings, no? He mentions \"in-laws,\" after all,\namong those relatives trying to help him get started." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or could that refer to his parents' brothers- and sisters-in-law?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Because Tilly's death is the circumstance that brings Smart, out of a job,\nall the way from Florida to Ohio. Smart has just arrived in town; he is" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um, no; as mentioned above, Smart took over the pharmacy after Tilly died;\nand has seemingly been doing so for some time (158-9, Harper & Row hc).\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }