{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3499", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3499, "subject": "PEACE: What happened to everybody else?", "messages": 4, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-10-21T23:35:41+00:00", "last": "2002-10-22T01:11:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Veyera", "address": "teflon93 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-10-21T23:35:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: What happened to everybody else?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The recent thread on Mr Tilly and the discoveries made regarding oranges\n(especially his propensity for injecting oranges with drugs) have made me\nwonder again what real or perceived calamity befell humanity in Weer's\npresent. This is referred to consistently throughout, and buttressed\nperhaps by the Irish folktale at the very end of the novel. What is Wolfe's\ngame here?\n\nThere seems to be a lot more going on in that plant than meets the eye, what\nwith the very odd treatment of the reporter and that ghost story.\n\nI was also struck by the comment that the plant opening caused a glut in the\npotato market in the area. Aside from using potatoes to make vodka (a key\ncomponent in the screwdrivers Weer favors) and the potential that the plant\nis also a distillery, why should this be? Is a key juice ingredient\nextracted from potatoes?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-10-22T00:00:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: What happened to everybody else?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Veyera wrote:\nThe recent thread on Mr Tilly and the discoveries made regarding oranges\n(especially his propensity for injecting oranges with drugs) have made me\nwonder again what real or perceived calamity befell humanity in Weer's\npresent. This is referred to consistently throughout, and buttressed\nperhaps by the Irish folktale at the very end of the novel. What is Wolfe's\ngame here?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the AD 2274 timeframe, all the Americans have died out. Throughout\nPEACE there is a sense of \"decline and fall,\" like that of the Roman\nEmpire, with Weer being something like a provincial big man who sees it\ncrumbling away. One reason given for the fall of the Roman Empire is the\nlead in the water -- the Romans were accidentally poisoning themselves by\nusing lead pipes. This single point seems to be a compelling answer for\nthe soft-apocalypse that happens offstage in PEACE: the citizens have been\npoisoned by the fake orange drink, turned into sterile workers or freakish\nmutants (sideshow freaks who have to live nomadic lifestyles). As per\nOlivia and Weer's vision of the relatively near future, the continent is\nlikely peopled by new species of humankind, with tribal organization being\nthe highest level. Weer wasn't alive past 1974, so he doesn't have the\ndetails for the last two centuries, but it was all falling action from the\ntrends he could see.\n\nWeer isn't the \"last American,\" since he is dead, but he might well be\namong the last American ghosts (delayed by that elm tree, in his case).\nVery much like the goose sidhe in the story you mentioned, who have\nsurvived past the death of their species.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was also struck by the comment that the plant opening caused a glut in the\npotato market in the area. Aside from using potatoes to make vodka (a key\ncomponent in the screwdrivers Weer favors) and the potential that the plant\nis also a distillery, why should this be? Is a key juice ingredient\nextracted from potatoes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whole potatoes are used up to make the ersatz orange beverage, or so it\nseems to me.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Veyera", "address": "teflon93 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-10-22T00:23:19+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) PEACE: What happened to everybody else?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for your reply, Mantis. I thoroughly enjoyed GURPS New Sun, btw.\n\n[snip]\n\nMantis wrote:\nIn the AD 2274 timeframe, all the Americans have died out. Throughout\nPEACE there is a sense of \"decline and fall,\" like that of the Roman\nEmpire, with Weer being something like a provincial big man who sees it\ncrumbling away. One reason given for the fall of the Roman Empire is the\nlead in the water -- the Romans were accidentally poisoning themselves by\nusing lead pipes. This single point seems to be a compelling answer for\nthe soft-apocalypse that happens offstage in PEACE: the citizens have been\npoisoned by the fake orange drink, turned into sterile workers or freakish\nmutants (sideshow freaks who have to live nomadic lifestyles). As per\nOlivia and Weer's vision of the relatively near future, the continent is\nlikely peopled by new species of humankind, with tribal organization being\nthe highest level. Weer wasn't alive past 1974, so he doesn't have the\ndetails for the last two centuries, but it was all falling action from the\ntrends he could see.\n[snip]\n\nSo may we assume PEACE and \"Seven American Nights\" are related?\n\n[snip]\nMantis wrote:\n\nWeer isn't the \"last American,\" since he is dead, but he might well be\namong the last American ghosts (delayed by that elm tree, in his case).\nVery much like the goose sidhe in the story you mentioned, who have\nsurvived past the death of their species.\n\n[snip]\n\nMight that not explain the letter nailed down? If Weer is a ghost, perhaps\nhe kept moving that letter, and someone among the living nailed it down so\nthat it would stop moving." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-10-22T01:11:59+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) PEACE: What happened to everybody else?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Veyera wrote:\nSo may we assume PEACE and \"Seven American Nights\" are related?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well they have always seemed thematically related, but I don't recall\nanyone trying to make a stronger case. Interesting thought, to arrange all\nthe tales of America declining and falling, from \"Hour of Trust\" and \"The\nBlue Mouse\" onward . . . well, I don't know about all that. But 7AN seems\nlike a plausible nesting inside the PEACE timeline, what with its mutants\nand tumble-down monuments." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mantis wrote:\n\nWeer isn't the \"last American,\" since he is dead, but he might well be\namong the last American ghosts (delayed by that elm tree, in his case).\nVery much like the goose sidhe in the story you mentioned, who have\nsurvived past the death of their species.\n\n[snip]\n\nMight that not explain the letter nailed down? If Weer is a ghost, perhaps\nhe kept moving that letter, and someone among the living nailed it down so\nthat it would stop moving." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It might, indeed. I'm still not sure exactly what happened with Weer's\nwandering essence =before= the elm fell, but now my sense is that the thing\nwas more like a mere shade, possessing only lower intelligence. When the\nelm fell another piece was released and the essence graduated up to being a\nghost, a step higher than a gibbering shade.\n\nThe shade, if I may use that term to denote \"Weer's essence prior to elm\nfall,\" seems to have not left the \"room\" with the fireplace near the elm.\n(I use quotes because there is reason to believe that the memory mansion\nhas no physical presence at all.) When Weer's ghost ventures out into the\nother rooms and eventually finds the president's room (which has the nailed\nletter you are referring to), it seems to be for the first time (as opposed\nto those actions which seem like repetitions of actions that the shade went\nthrough, like maybe questioning the doctors about his stroke).\n\nHow many categories of spirit are there? I don't know, but Weer's aunt\nBella knew!\n\n=mantis=" } ] } ] }