{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3505", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3505, "subject": "Long Sun puzzles", "messages": 7, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-10-23T16:48:57+00:00", "last": "2002-10-24T23:14:21+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-10-23T16:48:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun puzzles", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that the discussion has worked it's way back to the Long Sun, I would\nlike to put out some puzzles I come across while carefully re-reading scenes\ninvolving Chenille (to test my theories against Roy's). I'm sure someone can\nresolve them for me:\n\nNumero Uno:\nAt Orpine's murder scene, the following discussion transpires:\n\n\"[Blood demands, 'What's going on here?']\nWhen Orchid did not answer, The raspberry-haired girl [Chenille] said\nwearily, \"Orpine's dead. She just killed herself.\" She had a clean sheet\nunder her arm, neatly folded.\n'What for?' Blood demanded.\nNo one replied. [Chenille] shook out her sheet and passed a corner up to\nCrane. Together, they spread the sheet over the dead woman.\nSilk put away his beads and went down the steps to the courtyard. Half to\nhimself he muttered, 'She didn't-not forever. Not even as long as I.'\nOrchid turned to look at him. 'No, she didn't. Now shut up.'\"\nLS1:10\n\nMy question is: She didn't what? Kill herself? Orchid never seems to doubt\nthat she killed herself so why would she say \"she didn't\". Anyway, you can't\nkill yourself forever and Silk hasn't done that. What is Silk talking about\nand why doesn't Orchid want him saying it? This statement with it's iambic\nmeter smells like an extra-literary quote.\n\n\nNumero Two-o\nIn the next chapter (11) Silk gets Chenille to admit that she killed Orpine\nand they talk about how and why she got the knife. Then Silk asks Chenille:\n\n\"'Is Doctor Crane the friend you mentioned?'\n'No. That's somebody younger. Don't make me tell you who, unless you want me\nto get hurt.\"\n\nI'm probably losing it but I've re-read this the murder scene over and over\nand I can't find anywhere Chenille mentions this male \"friend\". Could this\nbe an editing mistake that was corrected in the paperback version?\n\n\nNumero Three-o\nThe more I've thought about this the funnier it seems. In LS2:3 Silk and\nMarble have the following discussion:\n\n\"You said those chops smelled delicious. Do things-does food really smell\ngood to you, Maytera? You can't eat it.\"\n\"But I can cook it, and I do,\" she reminded him gently, \"so naturally I know\nwhen something smells good.\"\n\"I was only thinking of Maytera Rose, and that was wrong of me. I should\nhave gotten something all three of you could enjoy.\"\n\nMy question is, WHAT could Silk have gotten at the grocer's or anywhere else\nthat the all could have enjoyed? Vegetable oil? The very statement seems\nloony!\n\n--Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cilluff1 at optonline.net", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2002-10-23T17:37:20+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Long Sun puzzles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn (Crush) wrote:\n\n\"Half to\nhimself he muttered, 'She didn't-not forever. Not even as long as I.'\nOrchid turned to look at him. 'No, she didn't. Now shut up.'\"\nLS1:10\n\nMy question is: She didn't what? Kill herself? Orchid never seems to doubt\nthat she killed herself so why would she say \"she didn't\". Anyway, you can't\nkill yourself forever and Silk hasn't done that. What is Silk talking about\nand why doesn't Orchid want him saying it? This statement with it's iambic\nmeter smells like an extra-literary quote.>>>\n\nLater in LS, in the scene where Silk tells Orchid how he knew Orpine was\nher daughter this comment is made clear. Orpines, we learn in this scene,\nare also known as \"live forevers,\" so Silk's comment is a reference to the\nirony of Orpine's name -- Orpine, unlike what her name would suggest, did\nnot \"live forever.\" Orchid, as Orpine's mother, was aware of the \"live\nforever\" meaning to Orpine's name, and so she picked up on Silk's comment.\nAt least, this is my understanding of it.\n\nRegards,\nJoe" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-10-24T05:01:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Long Sun puzzles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush asked:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Numero Two-o\nIn the next chapter (11) Silk gets Chenille to admit that she killed Orpine\nand they talk about how and why she got the knife. Then Silk asks Chenille:\n\n\"'Is Doctor Crane the friend you mentioned?'\n'No. That's somebody younger. Don't make me tell you who, unless you want\nme\nto get hurt.\"\n\nI'm probably losing it but I've re-read this the murder scene over and over\nand I can't find anywhere Chenille mentions this male \"friend\". Could this\nbe an editing mistake that was corrected in the paperback version?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Joe gave the correct answer for the first question. I don't think there is\nan answer to the third. Even though Silk knows, intellectually, that Marble\nis a machine, he can't seem to take the fact to heart. That anthropomorphic\nstreak in bios is just too wide and deep. \n\nFor the second question: I have the paperback, and re-read from when Silk\nfirst met Chenille to the quote above. You're right; she made no mention of\na male friend. It's a mistake. Wolfe may have become confused over who said\nwhat to whom. A few pages before that quote (277), Silk was asking her about\nher use of rust. He said that \"Orchid and a friend who knows you have both\ntold me you use it, and neither has reason to lie.\" That \"friend\" of Silk's\nis Auk, but Auk is also Chenille's friend. Auk is almost certainly the\n\"somebody younger\" she fears might hurt her. Hurt her again actually, as he\nhad confessed to having done so before to Silk the evening before.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-10-24T18:57:35+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Long Sun puzzles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy helpfully assists:\nJoe gave the correct answer for the first question...For the second\nquestion: I have the paperback, and re-read from when Silk\nfirst met Chenille to the quote above. You're right; she made no mention of\na male friend. It's a mistake. Wolfe may have become confused over who said\nwhat to whom. A few pages before that quote (277), Silk was asking her about\nher use of rust. He said that \"Orchid and a friend who knows you have both\ntold me you use it, and neither has reason to lie.\" That \"friend\" of Silk's\nis Auk, but Auk is also Chenille's friend. Auk is almost certainly the\n\"somebody younger\" she fears might hurt her. Hurt her again actually, as he\nhad confessed to having done so before to Silk the evening before.\n\nCrush appreciatively responds:\nI agree Joe is dead on for numero uno. I'm feeling kind of dense for the\ntime I spent grappling with it.\nAs for \"numero two-o\" that's a very clever explanation. But it's not clear\nto me what she would be hiding about Auk. He didn't give or sell her rust.\nActually, he beat her because she tried to get money out him to buy rust.\nAnyway, Silk already knows about Auk's tenuous relationship with Chenille.\nHer relationship with him seems to have been quite casual since Auk doesn't\nreally know her except as Kypris - when the goddess leaves, they have almost\nno real \"friendship\" at all. What could she tell Silk that would get her\nbeaten?\n\nCould it be Musk? Well she's already told Silk that Musk provided her with\nthe Orpine's murder weapon. She reveals that she's a spy for Crane, but\nthere's someone else she still afraid of.\n\nSilk's question suggests this friend is someone whose relationship with\nChenille he is so far unaware of. It's possible this question refers to a\nstatement that actually existed at one time but was inadvertently cut. But\nit is gratifying to know that at least I'm not missing something right in\nfront of my eyes (maybe).\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-10-24T20:50:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Long Sun puzzles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nAs for \"numero two-o\" that's a very clever explanation. But it's not clear\nto me what she would be hiding about Auk. He didn't give or sell her rust.\nActually, he beat her because she tried to get money out him to buy rust.\nAnyway, Silk already knows about Auk's tenuous relationship with Chenille.\nHer relationship with him seems to have been quite casual since Auk doesn't\nreally know her except as Kypris - when the goddess leaves, they have\nalmost\nno real \"friendship\" at all. What could she tell Silk that would get her\nbeaten?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I found the definitive answer, and the friend _is_ Auk. It's in chapter 5 of\nLAKE (111, paper), right after Auk met Silk and Chenille in the arbor at Sun\nStreet:\n\n\"Auk was seated next to Chenille. Silk said, 'You know each other, clearly.'\n \"Chenille dimpled, and suddenly seemed no older than the nineteen years\nshe claimed. 'Remember day before yesterday, Patera? When I said there was\nsomebody? Somebody younger than Crane? And I said I thought he might help me\n. . . us? With Crane?'\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could it be Musk? Well she's already told Silk that Musk provided her with\nthe Orpine's murder weapon. She reveals that she's a spy for Crane, but\nthere's someone else she still afraid of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Musk didn't give her the dagger; Crane did. Crane just said he would ask\nMusk for advice about finding a good one. Chenille didn't know that Silk\nknew Auk when she mentioned that \"friend\" (the mention that didn't get into\nthe text) when they spoke together at Orchid's. She knew Auk was a criminal,\nand was afraid Auk would be mad at her if she let a goody-two-shoes augur\nknow about him.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-10-24T21:46:44+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Long Sun puzzles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy triumphed:\nI found the definitive answer, and the friend _is_ Auk. It's in chapter 5 of\nLAKE (111, paper), right after Auk met Silk and Chenille in the arbor at Sun\nStreet:\n\n\"Auk was seated next to Chenille. Silk said, 'You know each other, clearly.'\n \"Chenille dimpled, and suddenly seemed no older than the nineteen years\nshe claimed. 'Remember day before yesterday, Patera? When I said there was\nsomebody? Somebody younger than Crane? And I said I thought he might help me\n. . . us? With Crane?'\"\n\nCrush responds:\nThat's it. Excellent work. On the other hand, this seems to make the\nnarrative more problematic since not only does she *not* mention this\n\"friend\" at Orchids, she doesn't mention getting money out of Crane til\nafter Orpine's funeral. And even then she doesn't offer her \"friend\" as a\npossible help in that.\n\n\nRoy added:\nMusk didn't give her the dagger; Crane did. Crane just said he would ask\nMusk for advice about finding a good one.\n\nCrush\nWell, Crane *does* give Chenille the dagger, but it was originally owned by\nMusk. Poppy was flat out lying when she said there was a guy named Cat who\nshe and sometimes Orpine serviced. Note that the only person who can\ncontradict this story is dead. This is why Musk becomes so agitated when\nSilk carefully studies the knife. Everyone is looking for the owner of the\nknife as if he is responsible:\n\n\"'May I see that, please?' Deftly, Silk took the dagger from Musk [and\nexamines the blade]...'Nearly new,' he muttered. 'Not terribly expensive,\nbut not cheap either.'\"\nMusk said, Any fool can see that,' and took back the dagger.\"\n\nFor the rest of the exorcism Musk gives Silk the stink-eye.\n\nThe \"cat\" on the handle is a \"civet\" (or so I read it). \"Civet\" is a type of\nfeline but it is also a musky yellowish fluid taken from glands in the anal\npouch of the civet used as a perfume. So civet is a type of musk. Silk when\nstudying the picture ponders the drop of blood and considers its possible\nassociation with Blood the person. So the picture is of a \"civet with\nblood\".\n\nFurthermore, Silk considers the mouse in the cat's mouth. He decides it is a\n\"badge\" of some sort. Well whose badge is the mouse? Apollo's - denoting his\npatronage of medicine. Another connection between Silk and Apollo. Secondly,\nMusk owns Silk's mantaeon, so he has Silk in his power just as the cat has\nthe mouse in his mouth.\n\nFinally, Musk plays \"cat and mouse\" with Silk, having Blood demand from Silk\nmany many times more for the property than he paid, and then having him\nshorten the payment period to a week to get Silk to come back and beg for\nmore. In case anybody misses this, after the exorcism Musk strikes Silk with\nhis knife but \"velvets his paw\" by turning the blade inward with his knife -\nexactly what a cat does when playing with a mouse.\n\n\nRoy explains Chenille's reason for not mentioning Auk thus:\nChenille didn't know that Silk knew Auk when she mentioned that \"friend\"\n(the mention that didn't get into the text) when they spoke together at\nOrchid's. She knew Auk was a criminal, and was afraid Auk would be mad at\nher if she let a goody-two-shoes augur know about him.\n\nCrush relents:\nHmmm. Maybe. I can't imagine what Auk was supposed to have done for her.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Ingram", "address": "j_ingram at mac.com" }, "date": "2002-10-24T23:14:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Long Sun puzzles", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could it have been Hyacinth? (regarding question number two)\n\nsepia" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thursday, October 24, 2002, at 11:57 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nRoy helpfully assists:\nJoe gave the correct answer for the first question...For the second\nquestion: I have the paperback, and re-read from when Silk\nfirst met Chenille to the quote above. You're right; she made no \nmention of\na male friend. It's a mistake. Wolfe may have become confused over who \nsaid\nwhat to whom. A few pages before that quote (277), Silk was asking her \nabout\nher use of rust. He said that \"Orchid and a friend who knows you have \nboth\ntold me you use it, and neither has reason to lie.\" That \"friend\" of \nSilk's\nis Auk, but Auk is also Chenille's friend. Auk is almost certainly the\n\"somebody younger\" she fears might hurt her. Hurt her again actually, \nas he\nhad confessed to having done so before to Silk the evening before.\n\nCrush appreciatively responds:\nI agree Joe is dead on for numero uno. I'm feeling kind of dense for \nthe\ntime I spent grappling with it.\nAs for \"numero two-o\" that's a very clever explanation. But it's not \nclear\nto me what she would be hiding about Auk. He didn't give or sell her \nrust.\nActually, he beat her because she tried to get money out him to buy \nrust.\nAnyway, Silk already knows about Auk's tenuous relationship with \nChenille.\nHer relationship with him seems to have been quite casual since Auk \ndoesn't\nreally know her except as Kypris - when the goddess leaves, they have \nalmost\nno real \"friendship\" at all. What could she tell Silk that would get \nher\nbeaten?\n\nCould it be Musk? Well she's already told Silk that Musk provided her \nwith\nthe Orpine's murder weapon. She reveals that she's a spy for Crane, but\nthere's someone else she still afraid of.\n\nSilk's question suggests this friend is someone whose relationship with\nChenille he is so far unaware of. It's possible this question refers \nto a\nstatement that actually existed at one time but was inadvertently cut. \nBut\nit is gratifying to know that at least I'm not missing something right \nin\nfront of my eyes (maybe).\n-- Crush\n\n\n\n\n-- " } ] } ] }