Subject: (urth) Long Sun puzzles

From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:48:57 +0000

Now that the discussion has worked it's way back to the Long Sun, I would
like to put out some puzzles I come across while carefully re-reading scenes
involving Chenille (to test my theories against Roy's). I'm sure someone can
resolve them for me:

Numero Uno:
At Orpine's murder scene, the following discussion transpires:

"[Blood demands, 'What's going on here?']
When Orchid did not answer, The raspberry-haired girl [Chenille] said
wearily, "Orpine's dead. She just killed herself." She had a clean sheet
under her arm, neatly folded.
'What for?' Blood demanded.
No one replied. [Chenille] shook out her sheet and passed a corner up to
Crane. Together, they spread the sheet over the dead woman.
Silk put away his beads and went down the steps to the courtyard. Half to
himself he muttered, 'She didn't-not forever. Not even as long as I.'
Orchid turned to look at him. 'No, she didn't. Now shut up.'"
LS1:10

My question is: She didn't what? Kill herself? Orchid never seems to doubt
that she killed herself so why would she say "she didn't". Anyway, you can't
kill yourself forever and Silk hasn't done that. What is Silk talking about
and why doesn't Orchid want him saying it? This statement with it's iambic
meter smells like an extra-literary quote.

Numero Two-o
In the next chapter (11) Silk gets Chenille to admit that she killed Orpine
and they talk about how and why she got the knife. Then Silk asks Chenille:

"'Is Doctor Crane the friend you mentioned?'
'No. That's somebody younger. Don't make me tell you who, unless you want me
to get hurt."

I'm probably losing it but I've re-read this the murder scene over and over
and I can't find anywhere Chenille mentions this male "friend". Could this
be an editing mistake that was corrected in the paperback version?

Numero Three-o
The more I've thought about this the funnier it seems. In LS2:3 Silk and
Marble have the following discussion:

"You said those chops smelled delicious. Do things-does food really smell
good to you, Maytera? You can't eat it."
"But I can cook it, and I do," she reminded him gently, "so naturally I know
when something smells good."
"I was only thinking of Maytera Rose, and that was wrong of me. I should
have gotten something all three of you could enjoy."

My question is, WHAT could Silk have gotten at the grocer's or anywhere else
that the all could have enjoyed? Vegetable oil? The very statement seems
loony!

--Crush

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From: cilluff1 at optonline.net <cilluff1 at optonline.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:37:20 +0000

James Wynn (Crush) wrote:

"Half to

meter smells like an extra-literary quote.>>>

Later in LS, in the scene where Silk tells Orchid how he knew Orpine was
her daughter this comment is made clear.  Orpines, we learn in this scene,
are also known as "live forevers," so Silk's comment is a reference to the
irony of Orpine's name -- Orpine, unlike what her name would suggest, did
not "live forever."  Orchid, as Orpine's mother, was aware of the "live
forever" meaning to Orpine's name, and so she picked up on Silk's comment.
At least, this is my understanding of it.

Regards,
Joe

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 05:01:11 +0000

>be an editing mistake that was corrected in the paperback version?

Joe gave the correct answer for the first question. I don't think there is
an answer to the third. Even though Silk knows, intellectually, that Marble
is a machine, he can't seem to take the fact to heart. That anthropomorphic
streak in bios is just too wide and deep. <g>

For the second question: I have the paperback, and re-read from when Silk
first met Chenille to the quote above. You're right; she made no mention of
a male friend. It's a mistake. Wolfe may have become confused over who said
what to whom. A few pages before that quote (277), Silk was asking her about
her use of rust. He said that "Orchid and a friend who knows you have both
told me you use it, and neither has reason to lie." That "friend" of Silk's
is Auk, but Auk is also Chenille's friend. Auk is almost certainly the
"somebody younger" she fears might hurt her. Hurt her again actually, as he
had confessed to having done so before to Silk the evening before.

-Roy

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 18:57:35 +0000

Roy helpfully assists:
Joe gave the correct answer for the first question...For the second
question: I have the paperback, and re-read from when Silk

Crush appreciatively responds:
I agree Joe is dead on for numero uno. I'm feeling kind of dense for the
time I spent grappling with it.
As for "numero two-o" that's a very clever explanation. But it's not clear
to me what she would be hiding about Auk. He didn't give or sell her rust.
Actually, he beat her because she tried to get money out him to buy rust.
Anyway, Silk already knows about Auk's tenuous relationship with Chenille.
Her relationship with him seems to have been quite casual since Auk doesn't
really know her except as Kypris - when the goddess leaves, they have almost
no real "friendship" at all. What could she tell Silk that would get her
beaten?

Could it be Musk? Well she's already told Silk that Musk provided her with
the Orpine's murder weapon. She reveals that she's a spy for Crane, but
there's someone else she still afraid of.

Silk's question suggests this friend is someone whose relationship with
Chenille he is so far unaware of. It's possible this question refers to a
statement that actually existed at one time but was inadvertently cut. But
it is gratifying to know that at least I'm not missing something right in
front of my eyes (maybe).
-- Crush

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:50:00 +0000

>no real "friendship" at all. What could she tell Silk that would get her

I found the definitive answer, and the friend _is_ Auk. It's in chapter 5 of
LAKE (111, paper), right after Auk met Silk and Chenille in the arbor at Sun
Street:

"Auk was seated next to Chenille. Silk said, 'You know each other, clearly.'
    "Chenille dimpled, and suddenly seemed no older than the nineteen years
she claimed. 'Remember day before yesterday, Patera? When I said there was
somebody? Somebody younger than Crane? And I said I thought he might help me
. . . us? With Crane?'"

>there's someone else she still afraid of.

Musk didn't give her the dagger; Crane did. Crane just said he would ask
Musk for advice about finding a good one. Chenille didn't know that Silk
knew Auk when she mentioned that "friend" (the mention that didn't get into
the text) when they spoke together at Orchid's. She knew Auk was a criminal,
and was afraid Auk would be mad at her if she let a goody-two-shoes augur
know about him.

-Roy

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:46:44 +0000

Roy triumphed:

Crush responds:
That's it. Excellent work. On the other hand, this seems to make the
narrative more problematic since not only does she *not* mention this
"friend" at Orchids, she doesn't mention getting money out of Crane til
after Orpine's funeral. And even then she doesn't offer her "friend" as a
possible help in that.

Roy added:
Musk didn't give her the dagger; Crane did. Crane just said he would ask
Musk for advice about finding a good one.

Crush
Well, Crane *does* give Chenille the dagger, but it was originally owned by
Musk. Poppy was flat out lying when she said there was a guy named Cat who
she and sometimes Orpine serviced. Note that the only person who can
contradict this story is dead. This is why Musk becomes so agitated when
Silk carefully studies the knife. Everyone is looking for the owner of the
knife as if he is responsible:

"'May I see that, please?' Deftly, Silk took the dagger from Musk [and
examines the blade]...'Nearly new,' he muttered. 'Not terribly expensive,
but not cheap either.'"
Musk said, Any fool can see that,' and took back the dagger."

For the rest of the exorcism Musk gives Silk the stink-eye.

The "cat" on the handle is a "civet" (or so I read it). "Civet" is a type of
feline but it is also a musky yellowish fluid taken from glands in the anal
pouch of the civet used as a perfume. So civet is a type of musk. Silk when
studying the picture ponders the drop of blood and considers its possible
association with Blood the person. So the picture is of a "civet with
blood".

Furthermore, Silk considers the mouse in the cat's mouth. He decides it is a
"badge" of some sort. Well whose badge is the mouse? Apollo's - denoting his
patronage of medicine. Another connection between Silk and Apollo. Secondly,
Musk owns Silk's mantaeon, so he has Silk in his power just as the cat has
the mouse in his mouth.

Finally, Musk plays "cat and mouse" with Silk, having Blood demand from Silk
many many times more for the property than he paid, and then having him
shorten the payment period to a week to get Silk to come back and beg for
more. In case anybody misses this, after the exorcism Musk strikes Silk with
his knife but "velvets his paw" by turning the blade inward with his knife -
exactly what a cat does when playing with a mouse.

Roy explains Chenille's reason for not mentioning Auk thus:
Chenille didn't know that Silk knew Auk when she mentioned that "friend"
(the mention that didn't get into the text) when they spoke together at
Orchid's. She knew Auk was a criminal, and was afraid Auk would be mad at
her if she let a goody-two-shoes augur know about him.

Crush relents:
Hmmm. Maybe. I can't imagine what Auk was supposed to have done for her.

-- Crush

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From: Jason Ingram <j_ingram at mac.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:14:21 +0000

Could it have been Hyacinth?  (regarding question number two)

sepia

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