{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3515", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3515, "subject": "Gnostic Wolfe vs CE Wolfe", "messages": 13, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-10-25T19:47:38+00:00", "last": "2002-11-01T23:45:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-10-25T19:47:38+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe vs CE Wolfe", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tom said:\nGnostics (as far as we know) weren't all that pessimistic, really.\nCompared to doctrines like Sheol and predestination, Gnostics\nwere positively euphoric.\n\nIt's best to read this entire entry [on Gnosticism from the CE) as an\noutdated (almost 100 year old) polemic by an ancient enemy of the Gnostics,\nrather than a serious analysis.\n\n\nCrush responds:\nMy interest in the CE is primarily in its influence on Wolfe's views and\nimages. Wolfe's a bit of an antiquarian. He consistently incorporates\nstatement's works by writers such as Graves and Sharpe uncritically -\nwithout worrying about whether they conform to the latest data (or in Graves\ncase, whether they are textually supportable). That said, I don't see how\none can say the article is not a \"serious analysis\". I'd be curious to know\nhow 20th century discoveries of Gnostic documents would alter (rather than\naugment) what's covered in this article.\n\nThis article seems to clearly delineate Gnostic pessimism as relating to\nCreation and it's Creator. Even Calvinist Protestantism doesn't claim that\nCreation was wrong from its inception by an evil god; only that it is\n\"fallen\"--totally so. They claim it was made perfect by a perfect and doting\nCreator. There are better authorities on Gnosticism on this list than me,\nbut it seems to me even *that* somewhat pessimistic religious view is\nincompatible with Gnostic doctrine as I understand it.\n\nI guess I have to agree with you that Wolfe seems to have created a world\nthat can only conform the Gnostic model. His purpose in doing so? I don't\nknow. He could be doing it to argue against it, or he may be conceding\n*some* of Gnosticism's points-of-view and redirecting them based on his\nworldview.\n\n--- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "tom", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2002-10-28T16:17:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe vs CE Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tom said:\nGnostics (as far as we know) weren't all that pessimistic, really.\nCompared to doctrines like Sheol and predestination, Gnostics\nwere positively euphoric.\n\nIt's best to read this entire entry [on Gnosticism from the CE) as an\noutdated (almost 100 year old) polemic by an ancient enemy of the Gnostics,\nrather than a serious analysis.\n\nCrush responds:\n[...] That said, I don't see how\none can say the article is not a \"serious analysis\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The article does a decent job of noting sources and summarizing the\npositions of various scholars. It fails, however, to provide an objective\nview of Gnostic doctrine. This is due, at least in part, by a lack\nof primary sources. Arendzen compounds this by his repeated choice of\npejorative phrases to describe Gnosticism: \"mad hope\",\n\"pseudo-intellectual\", \"pretended to be\", \"spread as a fungus\",\n\"stupefying roar of bombast\", and so on. It also leaves out the\ninteresting topic of how Gnosticism influenced (and was influenced\nby) early Catholicism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd be curious to know\nhow 20th century discoveries of Gnostic documents would alter (rather than\naugment) what's covered in this article." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The findings at Nag Hammadi and (to some extent) the Dead Sea Scrolls\ncould lessen the author's use of secondary, antagonistic sources. The\nauthor had at hand a mere fraction of the material now available. A\nnewer version would involve a major overhaul of his textual evidence.\n\nGiven the article's (necessary) paucity of details concerning the\nvarious Gnostic doctrines, Wolfe certainly had other sources.\n\nI might suggest Elaine Pagels' _The Gnostic Gospels_ for those looking\nto read up on the Gnostics, or the Amazon.com Listmania entries:\n_Gnostic Starter Library_ and _Coptic Gnostic Library at Chenoboskion_.\nFor a more modern, popular take, read Philip K. Dick's final three\nnovels (_Valis_, _The Divine Invasion_, _The Transmigration of\nTimothy Archer_). The Whorl looks a lot like The Black Iron Prison\nand Fats's laser beam is the same deus ex machina as the portals\n(although Silk is nothing like Horselover Fats). On the web (although\nbaised): http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlintro.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This article seems to clearly delineate Gnostic pessimism as relating to\nCreation and it's Creator. Even Calvinist Protestantism doesn't claim that\nCreation was wrong from its inception by an evil god; only that it is\n\"fallen\"--totally so. They claim it was made perfect by a perfect and doting\nCreator. There are better authorities on Gnosticism on this list than me,\nbut it seems to me even *that* somewhat pessimistic religious view is\nincompatible with Gnostic doctrine as I understand it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gnostics had a variety of beliefs about the material world, ranging from\nit being evil to simply irrelevant. A common thread is the idea that the\nmaterial world is not as important as the spiritual one, an idea they\nshared with Christianity.\n\nMaybe I'm missing the meaning of pessimism, but salvation through gnosis\nseems a lot less pessimistic than predestination." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-10-28T16:59:02+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe vs CE Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First of all, thanks for the recommended readings on Gnosticism.\n\nTom said:\nGiven the article's (necessary) paucity of details concerning the\nvarious Gnostic doctrines, Wolfe certainly had other sources.\n\nCrush responds:\nPerhaps he did. But the CE strikes me as a touchstone of his. He has other\nsources for Greek mythology as well, but he returns to Graves' works again\nand again for how to view them.\n\nTom said:\nGnostics had a variety of beliefs about the material world, ranging from\nit being evil to simply irrelevant. A common thread is the idea that the\nmaterial world is not as important as the spiritual one, an idea they\nshared with Christianity.\n\nCrush responds:\nI'm certain you're more qualified on this issue than I am. I presume you are\ncorrect about the variety of view points in Gnosticism regarding the created\nworld. Still, J.P. ARENDZEN's view of Gnosticism does not strike me as at\nodds with view of it by the Gospel of John, with Revelation, with Jude, or\nthe letters of Paul. I realize, of course, these are the *non-gnostic*\nChristian texts, yet I presume they are Wolfe's as well.\n\nTom said:\nMaybe I'm missing the meaning of pessimism, but salvation through gnosis\nseems a lot less pessimistic than predestination.\n\nCrush responds:\nHmmm. It seems to me you are confusing \"predestination\" with \"fatalism.\" An\neasy mistake, but they're not the same thing." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-10-28T17:01:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe vs CE Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, tom wrote:\nJames Wynn writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gnostics (as far as we know) weren't all that pessimistic, really." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Modern ones generally aren't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Compared to doctrines like Sheol and predestination, Gnostics\nwere positively euphoric." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's best to read this entire entry [on Gnosticism from the CE) as an\noutdated (almost 100 year old) polemic by an ancient enemy of the Gnostics,\nrather than a serious analysis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You should see their article on Bruno." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I might suggest Elaine Pagels' _The Gnostic Gospels_ for those looking\nto read up on the Gnostics," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why? The Nag Hammadi library is readily available.\n\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-10-28T17:09:41+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe vs CE Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I might suggest Elaine Pagels' _The Gnostic Gospels_ for \nthose looking to read up on the Gnostics, or the Amazon.com \nListmania entries: _Gnostic Starter Library_ and _Coptic \nGnostic Library at Chenoboskion_. For a more modern, popular \ntake, read Philip K. Dick's final three novels (_Valis_, _The \nDivine Invasion_, _The Transmigration of Timothy Archer_). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even better, I think, would be the various collection of his\nlate letters and notebooks which have been published. Probably\nthe most relevant among the rather overwhelming Dickiana which\nhave been printed would be IN PURSUIT OF VALIS: SELECTIONS \nFROM THE EXEGESIS (which is rather jaggedly edited but contains\nmuch good stuff); THE SHIFTING REALITIES OF PHILIP K. DICK:\nSELECTED LITERARY AND PHILOSOPHICAL WRITINGS (which I haven't\nread but looks quite interesting; and WHAT IF OUR WORLD IS \nTHEIR HEAVEN? THE FINAL CONVERSATIONS OF PHILIP K. DICK (which\nI enjoyed immensely)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Whorl looks a lot like The Black Iron Prison and Fats's \nlaser beam is the same deus ex machina as the portals " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually I would compare Dick's/Fat's \"pink laser beam\" to\nthe opening scene of NIGHTSIDE -- that is, Silk's enlightenment.\nDick describes the laser beam in terms strikingly similar to\nwhat happens to Silk -- it supposedly filled his head with \ninformation, some of it stuff he had no way of knowing but was\nable to confirm (such as his infant son's undiagnosed hernia),\nand took a very long time subjectively compared to a very\nshort objective time." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-10-28T17:19:14+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe vs CE Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A few fussy points for philosophical clarity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gnostics (as far as we know) weren't all that pessimistic, really." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Modern ones generally aren't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Compared to doctrines like Sheol and predestination, Gnostics were \npositively euphoric." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, one common meaning, and _the_ basic philosophical \nmeaning, of \"pessimism\" is very much in line with Gnostic \ndoctrine; see definition 2a. below (from \nwww.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary):\n\n Main Entry: pes*si*mism\n Pronunciation: 'pe-s&-\"mi-z&m also 'pe-z&-\n Function: noun\n Etymology: French pessimisme, from Latin pessimus \n worst -- more at PEJORATIVE\n Date: 1815\n 1 : an inclination to emphasize adverse aspects, \n conditions, and possibilities or to expect the\n worst possible outcome\n 2 a : the doctrine that reality is essentially evil \n b : the doctrine that evil overbalances happiness \n in life\n\nTo call someone a \"pessimist\" in common speech is to\nsay he's a glass-half-empty-ist. But to call someone\na \"pessimist\" in philosophical dialogue is to say that\nthey believe that \"this world sucks.\" \n\n(Which, I might add, is _not_ a basic Christian \ndoctrine; Christianity teaches that the world was made\nby a good God -- this is the opposite of Gnosticism! \n-- and that, though fallen, it is in its basic nature\ngood -- \"Good looked at\" [everything he made] \"and\nsaw that it was good.\")" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-10-28T17:25:02+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe vs CE Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nA few fussy points for philosophical clarity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Gnostics (as far as we know) weren't all that pessimistic, really." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Modern ones generally aren't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Compared to doctrines like Sheol and predestination, Gnostics were\npositively euphoric." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, one common meaning, and _the_ basic philosophical\nmeaning, of \"pessimism\" is very much in line with Gnostic\ndoctrine; see definition 2a. below (from\nwww.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary):" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're talking about Gnosticism as if all Gnostics think and believe\nalike.\n\nThis is not the case.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-10-28T17:47:32+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe vs CE Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Josh Geller writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're talking about Gnosticism as if all Gnostics think and \nbelieve alike.\n\nThis is not the case." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My apologies; since so many people (including some on this list)\nspeak of Christianity as if all Christians thought and believed\nalike, I should know better. Is there, then, a form of Gnosticism\nthat does _not_ teach that the world of matter is the false and\nillusory creation of a false and illusory god, and a barrier to\nknowledge of the true God and the true reality?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-10-28T17:55:54+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe vs CE Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nJosh Geller writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You're talking about Gnosticism as if all Gnostics think and\nbelieve alike." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is not the case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My apologies; since so many people (including some on this list)\nspeak of Christianity as if all Christians thought and believed\nalike, I should know better. Is there, then, a form of Gnosticism\nthat does _not_ teach that the world of matter is the false and\nillusory creation of a false and illusory god, and a barrier to\nknowledge of the true God and the true reality?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "tom", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2002-10-28T21:06:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe vs CE Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First of all, thanks for the recommended readings on Gnosticism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My pleasure. I've certainly got a lot more out of this list than\nI've contributed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tom said:\nMaybe I'm missing the meaning of pessimism, but salvation through gnosis\nseems a lot less pessimistic than predestination.\n\nCrush responds:\nHmmm. It seems to me you are confusing \"predestination\" with \"fatalism.\" An\neasy mistake, but they're not the same thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I've got it right. By predestination I mean the family that\nincludes what the CE describes as: \"It was Calvin who elaborated the\nrepulsive doctrine that an absolute Divine decree from all eternity\npositively predestined part of mankind to hell and, in order to obtain\nthis end effectually, also to sin.\", and its Catholic cousin.\n\nBasically, that God knows whether you're going to hell or not before\nyou're born. Now that's pessimism.\n\nIn any case, Wolfe doesn't seem to hold that view. I'm unaware of\nany character of his espousing it, in any case." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-10-28T21:33:45+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe vs CE Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If this is getting too far off topic, someone please yell at\nme. I think it retains relevance as a discussion of what, as\na Catholic, Wolfe's views of certain issues might be.\n\n\nTom writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think I've got it right. By predestination I mean the \nfamily that includes what the CE describes as: \"It was Calvin \nwho elaborated the repulsive doctrine that an absolute Divine \ndecree from all eternity positively predestined part of \nmankind to hell and, in order to obtain this end effectually, \nalso to sin.\", and its Catholic cousin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not sure what you mean by \"its Catholic cousin.\" Catholics\nare neither fatalists nor predestinationists ... the Catholic\nview involves what I call a \"binocular view.\"\n\nWith one eye, you look from within Time. Each of us, within\nTime, is free in the existential sense that, though one is\nnot free to choose the facticity of one's life, one is \nabsolutely free to choose (what the pessimistic/atheistic\nexistentialists call being \"condemned\" to choose) how one \nwill respond to that facticity: noting, however, that the \nfacticity of one's life presents inherent limits to one's\nfreedom. For example, one is not free to flap one's arms and\nfly to Mars. More subtly, if one chooses to go to Rome, one\nis not free to be in Carpathia at the same time. Further, if \none has certain neurological conditions, one is not free to \nbehave in certain ways which might otherwise be physically \npossible, or to _not_ do some things. \n\nWith the other eye, you strain to look from the point of\nview of Eternity. To God, outside Time, all moments are \neternally _present_ from the very act of Creation; and as\nsuch, all the free choices of all freely-willed creatures\nare always-already known to God. As a simple example, \nthough I freely choose, at this moment, to write this \nresponse, God always-already knows, from the moment of\nCreation, that I choose/will choose/have chosen to write \nthis response. Thus, from the moment of Creation, God \nalways-already knows which creatures will choose (by the\ntotality of their life's free choices) to be damned, and \nwhich will choose to be saved.\n\nThe Church also teaches that God intervenes in many, if\nnot all, lives, to influence (but never force) creatures \nto choose salvation. This influence is usually subtle and\nis referred to as _grace_. When it is blatant, it is called\na miracle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Basically, that God knows whether you're going to hell or not \nbefore you're born. Now that's pessimism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not really, because the word \"before\" is irrelevant; it makes\nthe assumption that God decides for you to be damned. Further,\nit is equally true to say that God knows \"before\" whether you're\ngoing to Heaven or not; if the one is pessimism, why would the\nother not be optimism? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any case, Wolfe doesn't seem to hold that view. I'm \nunaware of any character of his espousing it, in any case." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk sums a lot of this stuff up rather neatly in one of \nthe LS books by suggesting that \"freedom\" is the ability \nto say, \"Not as I will, but as You will.\" I'm misquoting \nbadly, but I think I have the gist." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "tom", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2002-10-29T15:58:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe vs CE Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If this is getting too far off topic, someone please yell at\nme. I think it retains relevance as a discussion of what, as\na Catholic, Wolfe's views of certain issues might be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It _is_ straying a bit. On the other hand, this brings up the\nquestion: given multiple Severians, what happened to the \"failed\"\nones after they died?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tom writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think I've got it right. By predestination I mean the \nfamily that includes what the CE describes as: \"It was Calvin \nwho elaborated the repulsive doctrine that an absolute Divine \ndecree from all eternity positively predestined part of \nmankind to hell and, in order to obtain this end effectually, \nalso to sin.\", and its Catholic cousin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not sure what you mean by \"its Catholic cousin.\" Catholics\nare neither fatalists nor predestinationists ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The CE describes Catholics as predestinationists in the entry\nfor _predestination_, subtitle _II. The Catholic Dogma_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the Catholic\nview involves what I call a \"binocular view.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(good summary of complex stuff deleted for space)\nAccording to the CE, there are at least two different theories\nabout how that works. Wolfe seems to favor the Thomist theory:\n\n\"God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future\nsupernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men\nto the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree,\ndecided to give them all the graces necessary for its\naccomplishment.\"\n\nThis is certainly the case for Silk - he's got all the good\nstuff. He's gifted, extremely well-suited for the mission\nbefore him. All without effort on his part.\n\nNow, for a minimum of theological nitpicking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Basically, that God knows whether you're going to hell or not \nbefore you're born. Now that's pessimism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not really, because the word \"before\" is irrelevant;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The word \"before\" is the point. Assume God set up a box with a\nbig red button. The button was labelled \"Your Afterlife\", and\nby pushing it you'd find out where you were going after you died.\nYou push the button and get the answer. Kinda makes the rest\nof your life pointless, doesn't it? You know where you're\ngonna go, and there's no changing it. Now that's pessimism.\n\nIt's interesting to look at leaving the Whorl as a sort of\ndeath-experience, along with payoff. The inhabitants either\nget a lander going to heaven (Blue) or hell (Green). Where\nthey go is predestined (the landers are set ahead of time by\nsomebody else), but the people inside don't know. The\ndifference between Pas and God is that for Pas it's random,\nfor God it's based on merit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it makes the assumption that God decides for you to be damned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The whole subject is terribly complicated, but I think this view\ncan be supported." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--Blattid" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-11-01T23:45:43+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Gnostic Wolfe vs CE Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI might suggest Elaine Pagels' _The Gnostic Gospels_ for \nthose looking to read up on the Gnostics, or the Amazon.com \nListmania entries: _Gnostic Starter Library_ and _Coptic \nGnostic Library at Chenoboskion_. For a more modern, popular \ntake, read Philip K. Dick's final three novels (_Valis_, _The \nDivine Invasion_, _The Transmigration of Timothy Archer_)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Piggybacking after an ill-advised deletion)\n\nSome might also enjoy _The Wrestler's Cruel Study_, by Stephen Dobyns. \nNot very Wolfean, but fun.\n...\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }