{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3516", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3516, "subject": "Musk's dagger?", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-10-27T07:27:30+00:00", "last": "2002-10-28T20:41:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-10-27T07:27:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Musk's dagger?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush perseveres:\nThe guy named \"Cat\" is anything but irrelevant. The fact that Poppy lied\nabout knowing him shows that she, like Musk, is a Trivigaunte spy. The word\n\"civet\" is *Arabic* for \"perfume\". \"Civet\" is Musk's real name. The fact\nthat Musk changed it suggests he had something to hide (since the name\n*could* be Vironese as well). If the ownership of the knife came to light,\nBlood (\"a loyal son of Viron\") could conceivably have pieced together\nMusk's\ntrue heritage. Certainly Spider would have." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must be getting senile, because I just re-read the LS series this autumn\nand completely missed those two \"facts\". Could you tell me where in the\ntexts they might be found?\n\nI wonder why, when Marble was murdering Musk, Silk noted:\n\n \"The perverse self-forged discipline of the Orilla broke at last; Musk\nscreamed and continued to scream, each pause and gasp followed by a scream\nweaker and more terrible.\" LS3:3\n\nIs there an Orilla in Trivigaunte?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crane *gave* Chenille the knife. But Crane *got* it from Musk. He *said* he\nwent to Musk for advice, but in fact he took the knife Musk already owned\nand had the tail of the \"cat\" tinted red. Then he gave it to Chenille.\nVoila! Crane and Musk \"launder\" a potentially incriminating piece of\nevidence. I guess he *could* have thrown it away, or buried it, or\ndestroyed\nit - but I suppose it was nice enough that he couldn't bear to do that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I missed that fact, too. Source?\n\nLet me see if I have this straight: Musk, nee Civet, was born and raised in\nTrivigaunte. He came to Viron as a spy and struck up a homosexual\nrelationship with Blood. He brought with him from Trivigaunte a dagger\nhaving the image of an untinted cat with a mouse in its jaws on the handle,\nsaid image representing his name. (I must be lacking in imagination; I would\nnever have associated the image of the cat-with-mouse on the handle with the\nsouth end of a civet. ) He had been with Blood for at least three years.\n(LS1:7, last page) After all that time Musk decided that the knife might\ngive him away as a spy, so he and Crane put their heads together and decided\nthat the best way to get rid of it was to tint the cat red and give it to a\nwhore who used rust and worked in Blood's whorehouse. Rust makes people\nviolent and rash, but what the hell, that would be the last they would ever\nsee of it; good riddance. And the fact that tinting the cat red, fire-tipped\ntail and all, made such a better pictograph of Chenille's name than Musk's\nwas just an amazing stroke of good fortune. The Outsider must have been at\nwork. It was a clever enough piece of work to fool Silk in his Father Brown\nmode; Silk never suspected. Ah, but wait! Both Silk and Musk agreed that the\nknife was \"nearly new\". Does that mean that Musk had the tell-tale knife\nmade for himself *after* he came to Viron? What was he thinking?\n\nLet's see now; how many Trivigaunti spies were in Blood's employ? Crane,\nMusk, Willet (aka Hossaan), Poppy . . . but, wait, let's just count the ones\nwho actually came from Trivigaunte. Crane, Musk, and Hossaan by your count,\nso far as I can tell. Why do you suppose this exchange took place between\nSilk and Hossaan, after Crane, Musk and Blood were all dead?\n\n \"'From your name--Maytera Marble told me that--you're a Trivigaunti. Is\nthat right? Doctor Crane said once that you were his second in command. Most\nof the spies he employed seem to have been Vironese, but it would be natural\nfor him to have a few from his own city, people he could trust completely.'\n \"'Only me, Calde. You're right though. More of us would have made us a\nlot more effective.'\" (LS4, 51)\n\nThe spy game was effectively over at that point; Willet had revealed his\ncitizenship, the fact that he was a spy, and had come to tell Silk that the\nTrivigaunti army was on its way to Viron. There is no question about Crane\nhaving been the leader of the Trivigaunti spies; it was his death which\ntriggered the arrival of the airship. There was no reason for Willet to\nconceal Musk's nativity at that point, had there ever been a reason.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-10-28T16:38:43+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Musk's dagger?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy sneered:\nI must be getting senile, because I just re-read the LS series this autumn\nand completely missed those two \"facts\". Could you tell me where in the\ntexts they might be found?\n\nCrush responds:\nI'm not sure to which \"facts\" you are referring? That \"civet\" is synonymous\nwith Musk? That it is an Arabic word? That Musk was the original owner of\nChenille's knife? That Poppy lied to help cover it up? You're making this\ndifficult for me since *I* do not feel free to use intellectual hand-waving\nto clear-up tricky portions in the narrative by saying, \"that fact is\nirrelevant\" or \"Silk wasn't thinking clearly.\"\n\nIn the posting http://urth.net/urth/archives/v0210/1933.txt.shtml I detailed\nfairly extensively why I believe Musk is the \"cat\" on the dagger. \"That's\nirrelevant\" was your only response. I'll offer another. After Musk strikes\nSilk with a velveted paw, the very next time Silk lays eyes on him, he is\nstanding side-by-side with Chenille. Musk has returned to continue his cat\nand mouse game. The first thing he does *according to the text* is:\n\"Catlike, he stalked across the sellaria to seat himself in Silk's reading\nchair.\" (LS2:3)\n\nIMO Musk might as well be wearing a costume pilfered from an Andrew Lloyd\nWeber musical.\n\n\nRoy continues:\nI wonder why, when Marble was murdering Musk, Silk noted:\n\n\"The perverse self-forged discipline of the Orilla broke at last; Musk\nscreamed and continued to scream, each pause and gasp followed by a scream\nweaker and more terrible.\" LS3:3\n\nIs there an Orilla in Trivigaunte?\n\nCrush ponders:\nDon't forget that Silk doesn't note this, Horn does. Is there an Orilla in\nViron? On my reading I only noticed this one reference to it, but I probably\nI missed or forgot about the others. The word \"orilla\" means literally\n\"border\". If I read the narrative the way you *claim* to, I would speculate\nthat this reference means Musk came from the border of Viron and someplace\nelse. Hmmm. I can't imagine where.\n\nBut I *don't* read it that way. I'm aware that \"orilla\" is a word for a\nworking-class district in Buenos Aires. \"Orilla\" could be merely Horn's word\nfor people from the lower class. Or perhaps I'm wrong that Musk came from\nTrivigaunte.\nIf Musk is not a Trivigaunte spy, in that case unique among Blood's employ,\nand who despite his apparent sadism, inexplicably stops Blood from killing\nSilk at his house...\n\n\"Blood took Hyacinth's little needler from his waistband, thumbed off its\nsafety catch, and aimed it carefully at Silk's chest. Musk frowned and\ntouched Blood's arm.\" (LS 1:7)\n\n...and if Musk is not from Trivigaunte despite his name associations, and\nhis ignorance of the workings of monitors after (surely) *a good deal more*\nthan 3 years at Blood's house (note that Auk does not suffer from this\nignorance)...\n\n...That doesn't affect the very reasonable conclusion that the knife was\nMusk's originally and that Poppy lied to help cover it up.\nMusk = Civet = Cat.\nPoppy's lie is not \"irrelevant\" whatever conclusion one comes to.\n\nSpeaking of irrelevant, I seem to recall that my original point was that\nMusk and Chenille had a connection and so perhaps Musk was Chenille's\n\"friend\". As you have shown, that friend was Auk - and exposed peculiar\nnarrative complexities in the bargain.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-10-28T20:41:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Musk's dagger?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nRoy sneered:\nI must be getting senile, because I just re-read the LS series this autumn\nand completely missed those two \"facts\". Could you tell me where in the\ntexts they might be found?\n\nCrush responds:\nI'm not sure to which \"facts\" you are referring? That \"civet\" is synonymous\nwith Musk? That it is an Arabic word? That Musk was the original owner of\nChenille's knife? That Poppy lied to help cover it up? You're making this\ndifficult for me since *I* do not feel free to use intellectual hand-waving\nto clear-up tricky portions in the narrative by saying, \"that fact is\nirrelevant\" or \"Silk wasn't thinking clearly.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The two \"facts\" were the two you alleged and which I quoted. These two: \"The\nfact that Poppy lied about knowing him shows that she, like Musk, is a\nTrivigaunte spy.\" and \"\"Civet\" is Musk's real name. The fact that Musk\nchanged it suggests he had something to hide (since the name *could* be\nVironese as well).\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the posting http://urth.net/urth/archives/v0210/1933.txt.shtml I\ndetailed\nfairly extensively why I believe Musk is the \"cat\" on the dagger. \"That's\nirrelevant\" was your only response." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hardly. What I actually said was: \"The guy named Cat is irrelevant. It was\nOrchid who jumped to the conclusion that the dagger belonged to a man named\nCat--because of the cat image on the hilt.\" My \"Chenille's dagger\" post laid\nout the textual evidence to support Silk's deduction that the knife belonged\nto her. Silk's reasoning is what led him to the (correct) conclusion that\nChenille had killed Orpine with it. If you disagree, then your argument is\nnot with me, but with the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush ponders:\nDon't forget that Silk doesn't note this, Horn does. Is there an Orilla in\nViron? On my reading I only noticed this one reference to it, but I\nprobably\nI missed or forgot about the others. The word \"orilla\" means literally\n\"border\". If I read the narrative the way you *claim* to, I would speculate\nthat this reference means Musk came from the border of Viron and someplace\nelse. Hmmm. I can't imagine where." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't need to speculate. There are many references to the Orilla in the\ntext; here are two from chapter three of LS1: \"As reported by Maytera\nMarble, Maytera Mint had named half a dozen places in which he might come\nacross Auk; all were in the Orilla, the worst section of the quarter.\" and\n\"Lamp Street brought him to the Orilla, where the lake waters had begun when\nViron was young.\" (pp. 70, 72, paper) The Orilla is where the tavern named\nthe Cock was located.\n\nAs for Horn being the author of the notation; well, yes, he was, in a sense,\nand of every other line in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I *don't* read it that way. I'm aware that \"orilla\" is a word for a\nworking-class district in Buenos Aires. \"Orilla\" could be merely Horn's\nword\nfor people from the lower class. Or perhaps I'm wrong that Musk came from\nTrivigaunte." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Orilla is a lawless, run-down section of Viron, in walking distance from\nthe Sun Street manteion. The Chapter had closed its manteion there. It is\nalso where Auk maintained his room, the one with the working glass, in an\nempty shop." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Musk is not a Trivigaunte spy, in that case unique among Blood's employ,\nand who despite his apparent sadism, inexplicably stops Blood from killing\nSilk at his house...\n\n\"Blood took Hyacinth's little needler from his waistband, thumbed off its\nsafety catch, and aimed it carefully at Silk's chest. Musk frowned and\ntouched Blood's arm.\" (LS 1:7)\n\n...and if Musk is not from Trivigaunte despite his name associations, and\nhis ignorance of the workings of monitors after (surely) *a good deal more*\nthan 3 years at Blood's house (note that Auk does not suffer from this\nignorance)..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What ignorance? Silk's first sight of Musk was through Auk's glass. Musk\nknew to snap his fingers to break the connection. If you mean that he was\nunaware of a monitor's literal-minded answers to direct questions, hence\nineffective when questioning one while looking for an intruder, that just\nindicates to me that he wasn't as clever as Silk.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }