{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3526", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3526, "subject": "PEACE: Gold hunt's end at the box in the hole", "messages": 9, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-10-29T17:16:10+00:00", "last": "2002-11-01T09:43:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-10-29T17:16:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: Gold hunt's end at the box in the hole", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahem.\n\nDamien Broderick voiced an opinion of many readers when he proposed to Gene\nWolfe that Weer found buried gold in that expedition with Lois. Gene Wolfe\nsaid no he did not. (This was all in an issue of \"The New York Review of\nScience Fiction\" a few years back.)\n\nSo the probability wave for that possibility collapsed. I checked it off\nthe list (\"Weer's sudden fortune at age 50 due to finding hidden gold\") and\nmoved on.\n\nBut the fact remains that the diggers seem to have hit a container of some\nkind: if it was not the strongbox, then the next most likely item would be\na coffin. In order to be sure that it was not a strongbox with gold, they\nhad to excavate enough to determine its size.\n\nYet it is a tad difficult to imagine them doing further excavation after\nLois has pulled the gun on Weer. Whatever happens, it is not in the spirit\nof easy cooperation. So maybe she tells him to keep digging, and he does,\nand then they figure out it is a coffin. Then he gets the gun from her.\n(I don't think he kills her, even though there is a ready-dug grave right\nthere.)\n\nWeer confronts Lou Gold, then Sherry makes her visit. Sherry speaks of her\n\"magic ring,\" and aside from the link to the title of this message (the\nspooky link between tomb and womb), what she describes can also be termed a\nring of gold.\n\nOn another topic: I wrote before that the Bell Witch under Margaret Lorn's\nporch was real. That was rash of me, and I take it back: what I meant was\nthat if there is a mystery or action in PEACE which could be solved by a\nghostly presence, then it =is= solved that way. The \"witch under the porch\nstep\" thing is there to establish that ghosts can be pinned down (see also\nGold's Necronomicon; elm trees planted on graves); the ghost itself plays\nno role, and thus probably isn't there.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Veyera", "address": "teflon93 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-10-30T03:53:47+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) PEACE: Gold hunt's end at the box in the hole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis wrote:\n\nWeer confronts Lou Gold, then Sherry makes her visit. Sherry speaks of her\n\"magic ring,\" and aside from the link to the title of this message (the\nspooky link between tomb and womb), what she describes can also be termed a\nring of gold.\n\nTo which I reply:\n\nI actually thought Sherry's reference to a \"magic ring\" women possess was a\nlot more vulgar in connotation. It certainly would seem to be in keeping\nwith her character." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2002-10-30T18:20:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Gold hunt's end at the box in the hole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis writes, about the hole Weer dug with \nLois (at the end of the Gold Hunt):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the fact remains that the diggers seem to \nhave hit a container of some kind: if it was \nnot the strongbox, then the next most likely \nitem would be a coffin. In order to be sure \nthat it was not a strongbox with gold, they\nhad to excavate enough to determine its size." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I remember correctly, this section is next to\nto the Bell Witch section, with the porch step \n\"tombstone.\"\n\nI had assumed that they found a flat stone shaped \nroughly like the top of a treasure box, which Weer \nthen used as a tombstone when he buried Lois in \nthe hole they dug. \n\nMantis presciently disagrees:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(I don't think he kills her, even though there \nis a ready-dug grave right there.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fact that earlier, Lois said that she wasn't \nplanning on digging up any graves takes on added \nsignificance in either case, whether they \ndiscover a coffin or whether Weer kills her. \n\nStone Ox" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-10-30T20:15:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Gold hunt's end at the box in the hole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nBut the fact remains that the diggers seem to have hit a container of some\nkind: if it was not the strongbox, then the next most likely item would be\na coffin. In order to be sure that it was not a strongbox with gold, they\nhad to excavate enough to determine its size." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the further cause of pedantry, I should point out that there doesn't seem\nto have been a coffin, any more than there had been a strongbox. The text\nreads: \"My shovel had struck a stone, causing the blade to ring, and in a\nspot of moonlight I had seen the glint of metal in Lois's hand.\"\n\nThe gold never existed; Lou Gold made the whole story up, including the\ngeographical reference points they were using to locate it. People don't\nlocate graveyards in or near creek beds, for obvious reasons. Sugar creek\nhad water in it at the time the gold was supposedly buried. It was a dry\ncreek bed at the time Weer and Lois dug there, but would have been subject\nto flooding in the wet season. It is very unlikely that anyone would bury a\nbody where it was commonly subject to being washed out, whether the grave\nsite was hallowed ground or a clandestine burial. Also, in the 19th century,\nmost coffins would have been made of wood, which would not cause a shovel\nblade to ring when struck." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yet it is a tad difficult to imagine them doing further excavation after\nLois has pulled the gun on Weer. Whatever happens, it is not in the spirit\nof easy cooperation. So maybe she tells him to keep digging, and he does,\nand then they figure out it is a coffin. Then he gets the gun from her.\n(I don't think he kills her, even though there is a ready-dug grave right\nthere.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the digging stopped when Lois pulled the gun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Weer confronts Lou Gold, then Sherry makes her visit. Sherry speaks of her\n\"magic ring,\" and aside from the link to the title of this message (the\nspooky link between tomb and womb), what she describes can also be termed a\nring of gold." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of magic rings: did Lois ever employ hers in her quest for gold?\nWeer was certainly hoping so, and planned to \"bring a flask, and make\ncertain we had a blanket to spread upon the ground\". They were two days\ndigging that trench, and they were there by moonlight.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-10-30T20:43:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Gold hunt's end at the box in the hole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stone Ox quoted and wrote:\nMantis writes, about the hole Weer dug with\nLois (at the end of the Gold Hunt):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the fact remains that the diggers seem to\nhave hit a container of some kind: if it was\nnot the strongbox, then the next most likely\nitem would be a coffin. In order to be sure\nthat it was not a strongbox with gold, they\nhad to excavate enough to determine its size." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I remember correctly, this section is next to\nto the Bell Witch section, with the porch step\n\"tombstone.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct. But, according to the web site mantis found, the Bell Witch was\nnever buried, so there never was a tombstone. Margaret was just putting Den\non. Not to mention that Robertson county Tennessee was at least the entire\nwidth of Kentucky from the nearest possible location for the Lorns' farm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I had assumed that they found a flat stone shaped\nroughly like the top of a treasure box, which Weer\nthen used as a tombstone when he buried Lois in\nthe hole they dug." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would a murderer mark the grave of his victim?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-10-30T22:53:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Gold hunt's end at the box in the hole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nIn the further cause of pedantry, I should point out that there doesn't seem\nto have been a coffin, any more than there had been a strongbox. The text\nreads: \"My shovel had struck a stone, causing the blade to ring, and in a\nspot of moonlight I had seen the glint of metal in Lois's hand.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The gold never existed; Lou Gold made the whole story up, including the\ngeographical reference points they were using to locate it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well now you're wrong: the gold historically exists and has never been\nfound! (I know, you mean it was never where they were digging.)\n\nI will go further and say that even though the gold wasn't there, still the\nmeeting between Kate and Quantrill really did happen: when Weer sees Kate\nand Q it is as valid as when he sees Kate and Hannah. Ghosts are valid;\nKate has already been established as one of the more coherent ghosts of the\nnovel; any ghostly memory channeled via Kate is valid.\n\nFurthermore, this means that Lou Gold, even while \"forging\" the diary, was\nin some sense channeling Kate. Seems outrageous, I know, but then the fact\nthat his forged Necronomicon somehow \"works\" is a pointer; as well as the\nfact that, as I've written above, Ghost Kate is already established in the\ntext.\n\nRoy quoted Stone Ox:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I had assumed that they found a flat stone shaped\nroughly like the top of a treasure box, which Weer\nthen used as a tombstone when he buried Lois in\nthe hole they dug." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would a murderer mark the grave of his victim?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I argue against Weer murdering Lois, still, the text is clear that\nghosts can be pinned down and this is why Weer would use the stone: not to\nmark the grave (though it would do that as well) but to pin the ghost down\nso she wouldn't come after him. Like a stake through the heart of a\nvampire (iirc the old tradition of pinning them down rather than turning\nthem to dust)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy quoted me and wrote:\nWeer confronts Lou Gold, then Sherry makes her visit. Sherry speaks of her\n\"magic ring,\" and aside from the link to the title of this message (the\nspooky link between tomb and womb), what she describes can also be termed a\nring of gold." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speaking of magic rings: did Lois ever employ hers in her quest for gold?\nWeer was certainly hoping so, and planned to \"bring a flask, and make\ncertain we had a blanket to spread upon the ground\". They were two days\ndigging that trench, and they were there by moonlight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More follow-up: while Sherry's \"magic ring\" can be riddled as \"ring of\ngold,\" she pointedly puts down conventional marriage where the wife stays\nhome and does chores -- she wants a life of adventure (rather like Olivia\nand Lois).\n\nOn to Roy's wondering about Lois doling out sexual favors. Maybe. Seems\nlikely (shades of Olivia and Peacock in the cave). How ugly was their\nparting? Seems pretty ugly. He seems to be keeping the gun against her\npossible return.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2002-10-31T12:45:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Gold hunt's end at the box in the hole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy asks" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speaking of magic rings: did Lois ever employ hers in her quest for gold?\nWeer was certainly hoping so, and planned to \"bring a flask, and make\ncertain we had a blanket to spread upon the ground\". They were two days\ndigging that trench, and they were there by moonlight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe Wolfe has answered this. Quoting from Peace:\n\n \"... Den, I want you to help me find it.\"\n About an hour later we loaded Lois's pick and shovel into the trunk of\nmy car, and set out for Sugar Creek.\n\nWhat were Lois and Den doing during that hour? \n\n-- Stone Ox" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2002-11-01T01:14:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Gold hunt's end at the box in the hole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis quotes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy quoted Stone Ox:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I had assumed that they found a flat stone shaped\nroughly like the top of a treasure box, which Weer\nthen used as a tombstone when he buried Lois in\nthe hole they dug." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why would a murderer mark the grave of his victim?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While I argue against Weer murdering Lois, still, the text is clear that\nghosts can be pinned down and this is why Weer would use the stone: \nnot to mark the grave (though it would do that as well) but to pin the \nghost down so she wouldn't come after him. Like a stake through the \nheart of a vampire (iirc the old tradition of pinning them down rather than \nturning them to dust)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's right. If Weer laid the stone down flat (like a porch step) only he \nwould know it marked Lois's grave. Suppose he kills her (most likely, \nthe gun went off accidentally while they were fighting for it). He now has\na body, and a grave and stone at hand. I think Wolfe very deliberately \nplaced that section about the Bell witch and the porch step \"tombstone\" \nin the middle of Lois's story (i.e., Weer's memories of Lois elicited his \nmemories of the Bell witch episode) because of these parallels.\n\n-- Stone Ox" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-11-01T09:43:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Gold hunt's end at the box in the hole", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Stone Ox quoted and wrote:\nWhile I argue against Weer murdering Lois, still, the text is clear that\nghosts can be pinned down and this is why Weer would use the stone:\nnot to mark the grave (though it would do that as well) but to pin the\nghost down so she wouldn't come after him. Like a stake through the\nheart of a vampire (iirc the old tradition of pinning them down rather\nthan\nturning them to dust)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's right. If Weer laid the stone down flat (like a porch step) only he\nwould know it marked Lois's grave. Suppose he kills her (most likely,\nthe gun went off accidentally while they were fighting for it). He now has\na body, and a grave and stone at hand. I think Wolfe very deliberately\nplaced that section about the Bell witch and the porch step \"tombstone\"\nin the middle of Lois's story (i.e., Weer's memories of Lois elicited his\nmemories of the Bell witch episode) because of these parallels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like mantis, I don't think Weer murdered her, and the way the text reads\ndoesn't seem to indicate that he killed her accidentally, either. She told\nhim why she had the gun *after* he took it away from her, or so I read it.\nBesides, as mantis wrote the other day: \"How ugly was their parting? Seems\npretty ugly. He seems to be keeping the gun against her possible return.\"\nAnd, as *everybody* knows, guns don't work against ghosts! \n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }