Subject: (urth) PEACE: Gold hunt's end at the box in the hole

From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:16:10 +0000

Ahem.

Damien Broderick voiced an opinion of many readers when he proposed to Gene
Wolfe that Weer found buried gold in that expedition with Lois.  Gene Wolfe
said no he did not.  (This was all in an issue of "The New York Review of
Science Fiction" a few years back.)

So the probability wave for that possibility collapsed.  I checked it off
the list ("Weer's sudden fortune at age 50 due to finding hidden gold") and
moved on.

But the fact remains that the diggers seem to have hit a container of some
kind: if it was not the strongbox, then the next most likely item would be
a coffin.  In order to be sure that it was not a strongbox with gold, they
had to excavate enough to determine its size.

Yet it is a tad difficult to imagine them doing further excavation after
Lois has pulled the gun on Weer.  Whatever happens, it is not in the spirit
of easy cooperation.  So maybe she tells him to keep digging, and he does,
and then they figure out it is a coffin.  Then he gets the gun from her.
(I don't think he kills her, even though there is a ready-dug grave right
there.)

Weer confronts Lou Gold, then Sherry makes her visit.  Sherry speaks of her
"magic ring," and aside from the link to the title of this message (the
spooky link between tomb and womb), what she describes can also be termed a
ring of gold.

On another topic: I wrote before that the Bell Witch under Margaret Lorn's
porch was real.  That was rash of me, and I take it back: what I meant was
that if there is a mystery or action in PEACE which could be solved by a
ghostly presence, then it =is= solved that way.  The "witch under the porch
step" thing is there to establish that ghosts can be pinned down (see also
Gold's Necronomicon; elm trees planted on graves); the ghost itself plays
no role, and thus probably isn't there.

=mantis=

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From: Jeff Veyera <teflon93 at cox.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 03:53:47 +0000

Mantis wrote:

To which I reply:

I actually thought Sherry's reference to a "magic ring" women possess was a
lot more vulgar in connotation.  It certainly would seem to be in keeping
with her character.

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From: StoneOx17 <stoneox17 at aol.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:20:07 +0000

Mantis writes, about the hole Weer dug with 
Lois (at the end of the Gold Hunt):

> But the fact remains that the diggers seem to 
> have hit a container of some kind: if it was 
> not the strongbox, then the next most likely 
> item would be a coffin.  In order to be sure 
> that it was not a strongbox with gold, they

If I remember correctly, this section is next to
to the Bell Witch section, with the porch step 
"tombstone."

I had assumed that they found a flat stone shaped 
roughly like the top of a treasure box, which Weer 
then used as a tombstone when he buried Lois in 
the hole they dug.  

Mantis presciently disagrees:
> (I don't think he kills her, even though there 
> is a ready-dug grave right there.)

The fact that earlier, Lois said that she wasn't 
planning on digging up any graves takes on added 
significance in either case, whether they 
discover a coffin or whether Weer kills her.  

Stone Ox

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:15:02 +0000

>had to excavate enough to determine its size.

In the further cause of pedantry, I should point out that there doesn't seem
to have been a coffin, any more than there had been a strongbox. The text
reads: "My shovel had struck a stone, causing the blade to ring, and in a
spot of moonlight I had seen the glint of metal in Lois's hand."

The gold never existed; Lou Gold made the whole story up, including the
geographical reference points they were using to locate it. People don't
locate graveyards in or near creek beds, for obvious reasons. Sugar creek
had water in it at the time the gold was supposedly buried. It was a dry
creek bed at the time Weer and Lois dug there, but would have been subject
to flooding in the wet season. It is very unlikely that anyone would bury a
body where it was commonly subject to being washed out, whether the grave
site was hallowed ground or a clandestine burial. Also, in the 19th century,
most coffins would have been made of wood, which would not cause a shovel
blade to ring when struck.

>(I don't think he kills her, even though there is a ready-dug grave right

I think the digging stopped when Lois pulled the gun.

>spooky link between tomb and womb), what she describes can also be termed a

Speaking of magic rings: did Lois ever employ hers in her quest for gold?
Weer was certainly hoping so, and planned to "bring a flask, and make
certain we had a blanket to spread upon the ground". They were two days
digging that trench, and they were there by moonlight.

-Roy

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:43:14 +0000

>to the Bell Witch section, with the porch step

Correct. But, according to the web site mantis found, the Bell Witch was
never buried, so there never was a tombstone. Margaret was just putting Den
on. Not to mention that Robertson county Tennessee was at least the entire
width of Kentucky from the nearest possible location for the Lorns' farm.

>then used as a tombstone when he buried Lois in

Why would a murderer mark the grave of his victim?

-Roy

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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:53:43 +0000

>spot of moonlight I had seen the glint of metal in Lois's hand."

Fair enough.

>geographical reference points they were using to locate it.

Well now you're wrong: the gold historically exists and has never been
found! (I know, you mean it was never where they were digging.)

I will go further and say that even though the gold wasn't there, still the
meeting between Kate and Quantrill really did happen: when Weer sees Kate
and Q it is as valid as when he sees Kate and Hannah.  Ghosts are valid;
Kate has already been established as one of the more coherent ghosts of the
novel; any ghostly memory channeled via Kate is valid.

Furthermore, this means that Lou Gold, even while "forging" the diary, was
in some sense channeling Kate.  Seems outrageous, I know, but then the fact
that his forged Necronomicon somehow "works" is a pointer; as well as the
fact that, as I've written above, Ghost Kate is already established in the
text.

>Why would a murderer mark the grave of his victim?

While I argue against Weer murdering Lois, still, the text is clear that
ghosts can be pinned down and this is why Weer would use the stone: not to
mark the grave (though it would do that as well) but to pin the ghost down
so she wouldn't come after him.  Like a stake through the heart of a
vampire (iirc the old tradition of pinning them down rather than turning
them to dust).

>digging that trench, and they were there by moonlight.

More follow-up: while Sherry's "magic ring" can be riddled as "ring of
gold," she pointedly puts down conventional marriage where the wife stays
home and does chores -- she wants a life of adventure (rather like Olivia
and Lois).

On to Roy's wondering about Lois doling out sexual favors.  Maybe.  Seems
likely (shades of Olivia and Peacock in the cave).  How ugly was their
parting?  Seems pretty ugly.  He seems to be keeping the gun against her
possible return.

=mantis=

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From: StoneOx17 <stoneox17 at aol.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:45:17 +0000

Roy asks

> digging that trench, and they were there by moonlight.

Maybe Wolfe has answered this.  Quoting from Peace:

    "... Den, I want you to help me find it."
    About an hour later we loaded Lois's pick and shovel into the trunk of
my car, and set out for Sugar Creek.

What were Lois and Den doing during that hour?  

-- Stone Ox

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From: StoneOx17 <stoneox17 at aol.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 01:14:15 +0000

> ghosts can be pinned down and this is why Weer would use the stone: 
> not to mark the grave (though it would do that as well) but to pin the 
> ghost down so she wouldn't come after him.  Like a stake through the 
> heart of a vampire (iirc the old tradition of pinning them down rather than 
> turning them to dust).

That's right.  If Weer laid the stone down flat (like a porch step) only he 
would know it marked Lois's grave.  Suppose he kills her (most likely, 
the gun went off accidentally while they were fighting for it).  He now has
a body, and a grave and stone at hand.  I think Wolfe very deliberately 
placed that section about the Bell witch and the porch step "tombstone" 
in the middle of Lois's story (i.e., Weer's memories of Lois elicited his 
memories of the Bell witch episode) because of these parallels.

-- Stone Ox

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 09:43:08 +0000

>memories of the Bell witch episode) because of these parallels.

Like mantis, I don't think Weer murdered her, and the way the text reads
doesn't seem to indicate that he killed her accidentally, either. She told
him why she had the gun *after* he took it away from her, or so I read it.
Besides, as mantis wrote the other day: "How ugly was their parting?  Seems
pretty ugly.  He seems to be keeping the gun against her possible return."
And, as *everybody* knows, guns don't work against ghosts! <g>

-Roy

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