{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3544", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3544, "subject": "Typhon vs. Pas", "messages": 8, "voices": 6, "first": "2002-11-05T21:56:25+00:00", "last": "2002-11-10T18:49:22+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-11-05T21:56:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon vs. Pas", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "alga wrote:\nThe notion that Wolfe has borrowed, quite\nsuccessfully, from Gnosticism is that of the Demiurge (and I don't know why\nsome of you are making a Typhon/Pas split--Wolfe doesn't in his\ninterviews)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regretfully, I think I started this whole Gnosticism/Demiurge debate a few\nweeks ago with my irreverent Whorl/Genesis comparison. Mea culpa. I am\ntrying very hard to stay out of it.\n\nI don't recall those interviews, but Pas certainly started put as Typhon, so\nperhaps Wolfe does think of them/him as one seamless entity. However, as\nPas, Typhon has somehow undergone a character transformation. By that I mean\nthat Typhon in the NS always struck me as a cardboard villain, mindlessly\nevil in the way that the \"bad\" entity in some Stephen King novel is just\nexpected to be accepted by the reader as evil, without resort to reason. His\nmotives, when they can be determined at all, are arbitrary and insane; but\nare more often inscrutable. His behavior is so egocentric, so childlike in\nits lack of selfgovernance (e.g., masturbation in Sev's presence), that it's\nhard to credit such a person ever living long enough to rise to a position\nof power, much less as ruler of some sort of Galactic Empire.\n\nSome of those characteristics are evident in the digitized personality of\nPas, but Pas in the LS books has become a more benign father figure. Even in\nthe last volume, Pas has not been exposed as the evil tyrant we knew in the\nNS books. He is regarded as a wise, compassionate, all-father who sought a\nnew beginning for mankind on new worlds. The _Whorl's_ cargo is apparently\nunaware of _why_ a new beginning is needed or desired; that is, they seem to\nbe ignorant of the fact that Urth's sun is in decline, and that Typhon may,\nwhether directly or indirectly, be responsible for that decline.\n\nIf I may push the Biblical analogy further; Typhon, in the NS, seems to me\nas the God of the Old Testament, while Pas, in the LS, is more like the God\nof the New Testament. That is, many believers perceive the God of the Old\nand New Testaments quite differently. Though they may know, on an\nintellectual level, that it is the same God in both Testaments, the God of\nthe Old is thought to be harsher, often capricious, while God in the New is\nperceived as more loving and kind.\n\nThe analogy can be pushed even further. Silk, in the SS books, becomes a\npart of Pas, and Pas assumes to himself a part of Silk. God, in the New\nTestament, becomes Flesh, in the person of Jesus. Jesus, after completing\nhis mission of redemption, returns to God in the mystery of the Trinity that\nis one. I'm not saying that Silk is a Christ figure, exactly, but there does\nseem to me to be a parallel.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-11-05T23:23:04+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Typhon vs. Pas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy said\nIf I may push the Biblical analogy further; Typhon, in the NS, seems to me\nas the God of the Old Testament, while Pas, in the LS, is more like the God\nof the New Testament. That is, many believers perceive the God of the Old\nand New Testaments quite differently. Though they may know, on an\nintellectual level, that it is the same God in both Testaments, the God of\nthe Old is thought to be harsher, often capricious, while God in the New is\nperceived as more loving and kind.\n\nCrush interjects:\nHow interesting that this analogy would come up at this point since this\nperceived difference between the \"God of the OT\" and the \"God of the NT\" was\nat the very heart of the arguments of Marcion and other second century\nGnostics. The god of the OT was the bad Demiurge. The god preached by Jesus\nwas the good God and Jesus was the Hercules, the superman \"Savior of the\nWorld.\"\n\nPerhaps at this point someone is remembering Michael Corleon's quote in The\nGodfather III:\n\n\"Just when I thought I was out--they pull me back in!\"\n\nThis was apparently the feeling 1st and 2nd century Apostolic Christians had\nabout the Gnostic Christians as well.\n\n--- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-11-06T20:06:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon vs. Pas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If I may push the Biblical analogy further; Typhon, in the NS, seems to\nme\nas the God of the Old Testament, while Pas, in the LS, is more like the\nGod\nof the New Testament. That is, many believers perceive the God of the\nOld\nand New Testaments quite differently. Though they may know, on an\nintellectual level, that it is the same God in both Testaments, the God\nof\nthe Old is thought to be harsher, often capricious, while God in the New\nis\nperceived as more loving and kind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You guys are really pushing my buttons. Let me just remind you that\nmany believers (Jews) and many non-believers don't think one \"knows\"\nthat the two Gods are the same, and many perceive the New Testament\nGod as harsher than the Old Testament god. I imagine that Wolfe,\nhowever, sees it as you describe.\n\nI agree that Typhon in BotNS seems far harsher than Pas, and I\nwonder whether Typhon improved the copy of himself.\n...\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-11-07T20:43:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon vs. Pas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nYou guys are really pushing my buttons. Let me just remind you that\nmany believers (Jews) and many non-believers don't think one \"knows\"\nthat the two Gods are the same, and many perceive the New Testament\nGod as harsher than the Old Testament god. I imagine that Wolfe,\nhowever, sees it as you describe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry. It was a common Christian perception I wrote of, not mine. I have no\npreference among religions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\nWhether or not he makes it in his interviews, it is clearly present in the\nbooks. Typhon is the ruler of Urth who built the Whorl; Pas is a copy of\nTyphon's personality that was downloaded into a computer. One could say\nthat Pas is Typhon in the sense that Silk-in-Mainframe is Silk; but the\nentity that ordered the Whorl to be built was killed by Severian on Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and this brings up some interesting questions about exactly when,\nwhere, and how the _Whorl_ came to be built. Sev's second meeting with\nTyphon was the first, chronologically. Sev, while still a prisoner on Mt.\nTyphon, told his recent converts (his jailers) that, based on what he knew\nfrom his other meeting with Typhon, that Typhon would soon die behind his\ncurtain. His followers, too afraid to look behind the curtain unbidden,\nwould wait in vain for orders that would never come; work on the mountain\nwould come to a halt, and the followers drift away. A thousand years later\nSev would discover the desiccated body and unwittingly revive it.\n\nTyphon, who had his own head cut off to spite his ego, had his head attached\nto Piaton's body. It was probably some complication of the surgery, or\nPiaton's resistance to having his mind and body subordinated to Typhon's\nwill, that led to the death of the body behind the curtain. The cranial\ngraft was to be temporary; when Typhon's nervous system was able to assume\nthe autonomous functions of the body, Piaton's head was to be removed. That\nprocess was taking longer than expected, but not so long as it would take to\nbuild the _Whorl_. If Sev's prophecy was true, then Typhon had to have\nalready been scanned into Mainframe and the ship launched; that or those\nthings happened fairly soon after Sev made the prophecy.\n\nEither way, it's hard to reconcile the NS and LS texts. We know that Marble\nand the other servant chems were older than the _Whorl_ itself, and\nHammerstone told Silk that the soldier chems were being stockpiled for\ntwenty years before coming aboard the ship. A painted canvas cloth at\nOrchid's place was \"a crude mockery of Campion's celebrated Pas enthroned.\"\nThe original showed two-headed Pas, along with a couple of mighty taluses\n\"still at work upon the whorl\".\n\nNow, the hollowing out of an asteroid and all the work needed to turn it\ninto a giant spaceship, stocking it with flora and fauna, soil, water, etc.,\nwould have been the work of years. At what point in the construction of the\n_Whorl_ did Typhon get his second head? Clearly he had it before the ship\nwas launched, but did he have it before construction started? That doesn't\nseem possible, because Typhon surely didn't have Piaton's body for twenty\nyears or more; that certainly wasn't his plan.\n\nIf Typhon underwent the operation *after* construction started, how did that\naffect his original intent in building it? If the _Whorl_ took a long time\nto build, as it surely did, were his seven children the product of his\noriginal body or Piaton's?\n\nAnd how is it that so massive an undertaking as the building, stockpiling,\nand launch of the _Whorl_ left no lasting echoes on Urth in Sev's day, just\na thousand years later? Sev and the Commonwealth seem completely ignorant of\nit.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-11-08T17:29:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon vs. Pas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nJerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You guys are really pushing my buttons. Let me just remind you that\nmany believers (Jews) and many non-believers don't think one \"knows\"\nthat the two Gods are the same, and many perceive the New Testament\nGod as harsher than the Old Testament god. I imagine that Wolfe,\nhowever, sees it as you describe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry. It was a common Christian perception I wrote of, not mine. I have\nno\npreference among religions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nMaybe I should apologize--you might have just gotten close to one of my\nbuttons rather than pushing it.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Thistlethwaite", "address": "shintemaster at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2002-11-10T14:03:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon vs. Pas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I agree that Typhon in BotNS seems far harsher than Pas, and I\nwonder whether Typhon improved the copy of himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "***\n\nI've just got online with the urthnet so please forgive my comments if\nthey've been outrageously dismissed!\n\nI've been taking a look at this thread recently and having recently re-read\nBotLS I had a thought on this...\nThere have been some ideas put forward w/regards to Pas being more\nbenevolent than his two headed counterpart... I've been wondering whether\nhis thoughts at the time, and I think all of us have noble thoughts\ninterspersed with our less admirable ones, may have contributed to this more\nuser-friendly Pas. i.e. When he was scanned into mainframe his thoughts were\non a particularly high spirited tilt... any thoughts?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Hubert Rogers", "address": "hubert at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2002-11-10T16:18:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon vs. Pas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From TBoTNS we know that Typhon is an extremely clever person, so he\nprobably just knew that it would be better for his avatar Pas to be\nbenevolent so that the cargo of the Whorl wouldn't not rise up against him.\nAnd another possibility is that Typhon knew that if Pas was a 100% copy of\nTyphon but digital, then wouldn't he naturally be a rival and usurp him if\never possible?\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: \"Ryan Thistlethwaite\" \nTo: \nSent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 2:03 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Typhon vs. Pas\nI agree that Typhon in BotNS seems far harsher than Pas, and I\nwonder whether Typhon improved the copy of himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "***\n\nI've just got online with the urthnet so please forgive my comments if\nthey've been outrageously dismissed!\n\nI've been taking a look at this thread recently and having recently\nre-read\nBotLS I had a thought on this...\nThere have been some ideas put forward w/regards to Pas being more\nbenevolent than his two headed counterpart... I've been wondering whether\nhis thoughts at the time, and I think all of us have noble thoughts\ninterspersed with our less admirable ones, may have contributed to this\nmore\nuser-friendly Pas. i.e. When he was scanned into mainframe his thoughts\nwere\non a particularly high spirited tilt... any thoughts?\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Reeves", "address": "abreeves at mail.utexas.edu" }, "date": "2002-11-10T18:49:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Typhon vs. Pas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "From: \"Ryan Thistlethwaite\" \nTo: \nSent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:03 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Typhon vs. Pas\nI agree that Typhon in BotNS seems far harsher than Pas, and I\nwonder whether Typhon improved the copy of himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "***\n\nI've just got online with the urthnet so please forgive my comments if\nthey've been outrageously dismissed!\n\nI've been taking a look at this thread recently and having recently\nre-read\nBotLS I had a thought on this...\nThere have been some ideas put forward w/regards to Pas being more\nbenevolent than his two headed counterpart... I've been wondering whether\nhis thoughts at the time, and I think all of us have noble thoughts\ninterspersed with our less admirable ones, may have contributed to this\nmore\nuser-friendly Pas. i.e. When he was scanned into mainframe his thoughts\nwere\non a particularly high spirited tilt... any thoughts?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'm going to weigh in on this one. The whole question floating around\nseems to have been \"Pas seems to be a better chap than Typhon off whom he\nwas scanned.\" I disagree, and I will explain why. When even the most evil\nruler is in charge of a nation, he has to, to some degree, behave with the\nwell being of his state in mind, if nothing else for the fact that if he\ndestroys his state with his depredations, then he has nothing off of which\nto live. Almost all leaders must as a rule operate according to their own\nnational interests or else not last long on the throne.\n\nPas, as a copy of Typhon, would still be megalomaniacal, but still acting in\naccordance with the best interests of the Whorl, as the Whorl was his raison\nd'something-or-other.\n\nI do think that another big element of the Whorl going out was Tyhpon's\nvanity (\"look at this big-ass wonder that I have made,\" but acting in your\ndomain's interests often goes hand in hand with vanity.\n\nJust my $.02.\n\nAndrew" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--" } ] } ] }