Subject: (urth) Typhon vs. Pas

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 21:56:25 +0000

alga wrote:
>The notion that Wolfe has borrowed, quite
>successfully, from Gnosticism is that of the Demiurge (and I don't know why
>some of you are making a Typhon/Pas split--Wolfe doesn't in his
interviews).

Regretfully, I think I started this whole Gnosticism/Demiurge debate a few
weeks ago with my irreverent Whorl/Genesis comparison. Mea culpa. I am
trying very hard to stay out of it.

I don't recall those interviews, but Pas certainly started put as Typhon, so
perhaps Wolfe does think of them/him as one seamless entity. However, as
Pas, Typhon has somehow undergone a character transformation. By that I mean
that Typhon in the NS always struck me as a cardboard villain, mindlessly
evil in the way that the "bad" entity in some Stephen King novel is just
expected to be accepted by the reader as evil, without resort to reason. His
motives, when they can be determined at all, are arbitrary and insane; but
are more often inscrutable. His behavior is so egocentric, so childlike in
its lack of selfgovernance (e.g., masturbation in Sev's presence), that it's
hard to credit such a person ever living long enough to rise to a position
of power, much less as ruler of some sort of Galactic Empire.

Some of those characteristics are evident in the digitized personality of
Pas, but Pas in the LS books has become a more benign father figure. Even in
the last volume, Pas has not been exposed as the evil tyrant we knew in the
NS books. He is regarded as a wise, compassionate, all-father who sought a
new beginning for mankind on new worlds. The _Whorl's_ cargo is apparently
unaware of _why_ a new beginning is needed or desired; that is, they seem to
be ignorant of the fact that Urth's sun is in decline, and that Typhon may,
whether directly or indirectly, be responsible for that decline.

If I may push the Biblical analogy further; Typhon, in the NS, seems to me
as the God of the Old Testament, while Pas, in the LS, is more like the God
of the New Testament. That is, many believers perceive the God of the Old
and New Testaments quite differently. Though they may know, on an
intellectual level, that it is the same God in both Testaments, the God of
the Old is thought to be harsher, often capricious, while God in the New is
perceived as more loving and kind.

The analogy can be pushed even further. Silk, in the SS books, becomes a
part of Pas, and Pas assumes to himself a part of Silk. God, in the New
Testament, becomes Flesh, in the person of Jesus. Jesus, after completing
his mission of redemption, returns to God in the mystery of the Trinity that
is one. I'm not saying that Silk is a Christ figure, exactly, but there does
seem to me to be a parallel.

-Roy

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 23:23:04 +0000

Roy said

Crush interjects:
How interesting that this analogy would come up at this point since this
perceived difference between the "God of the OT" and the "God of the NT" was
at the very heart of the arguments of Marcion and other second century
Gnostics. The god of the OT was the bad Demiurge. The god preached by Jesus
was the good God and Jesus was the Hercules, the superman "Savior of the
World."

Perhaps at this point someone is remembering Michael Corleon's quote in The
Godfather III:

"Just when I thought I was out--they pull me back in!"

This was apparently the feeling 1st and 2nd century Apostolic Christians had
about the Gnostic Christians as well.

--- Crush

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 20:06:30 +0000

--- "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> wrote:
...
> perceived as more loving and kind.

You guys are really pushing my buttons.  Let me just remind you that
many believers (Jews) and many non-believers don't think one "knows"
that the two Gods are the same, and many perceive the New Testament
God as harsher than the Old Testament god.  I imagine that Wolfe,
however, sees it as you describe.

I agree that Typhon in BotNS seems far harsher than Pas, and I
wonder whether Typhon improved the copy of himself.
...

Jerry Friedman

__________________________________________________
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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 20:43:45 +0000

>however, sees it as you describe.

Sorry. It was a common Christian perception I wrote of, not mine. I have no
preference among religions.

Adam Stephanides wrote:
>Whether or not he makes it in his interviews, it is clearly present in the
>books.  Typhon is the ruler of Urth who built the Whorl; Pas is a copy of
>Typhon's personality that was downloaded into a computer.  One could say
>that Pas is Typhon in the sense that Silk-in-Mainframe is Silk; but the
>entity that ordered the Whorl to be built was killed by Severian on Urth.

Yes, and this brings up some interesting questions about exactly when,
where, and how the _Whorl_ came to be built. Sev's second meeting with
Typhon was the first, chronologically. Sev, while still a prisoner on Mt.
Typhon, told his recent converts (his jailers) that, based on what he knew
from his other meeting with Typhon, that Typhon would soon die behind his
curtain. His followers, too afraid to look behind the curtain unbidden,
would wait in vain for orders that would never come; work on the mountain
would come to a halt, and the followers drift away. A thousand years later
Sev would discover the desiccated body and unwittingly revive it.

Typhon, who had his own head cut off to spite his ego, had his head attached
to Piaton's body. It was probably some complication of the surgery, or
Piaton's resistance to having his mind and body subordinated to Typhon's
will, that led to the death of the body behind the curtain. The cranial
graft was to be temporary; when Typhon's nervous system was able to assume
the autonomous functions of the body, Piaton's head was to be removed. That
process was taking longer than expected, but not so long as it would take to
build the _Whorl_. If Sev's prophecy was true, then Typhon had to have
already been scanned into Mainframe and the ship launched; that or those
things happened fairly soon after Sev made the prophecy.

Either way, it's hard to reconcile the NS and LS texts. We know that Marble
and the other servant chems were older than the _Whorl_ itself, and
Hammerstone told Silk that the soldier chems were being stockpiled for
twenty years before coming aboard the ship. A painted canvas cloth at
Orchid's place was "a crude mockery of Campion's celebrated Pas enthroned."
The original showed two-headed Pas, along with a couple of mighty taluses
"still at work upon the whorl".

Now, the hollowing out of an asteroid and all the work needed to turn it
into a giant spaceship, stocking it with flora and fauna, soil, water, etc.,
would have been the work of years. At what point in the construction of the
_Whorl_ did Typhon get his second head? Clearly he had it before the ship
was launched, but did he have it before construction started? That doesn't
seem possible, because Typhon surely didn't have Piaton's body for twenty
years or more; that certainly wasn't his plan.

If Typhon underwent the operation *after* construction started, how did that
affect his original intent in building it? If the _Whorl_ took a long time
to build, as it surely did, were his seven children the product of his
original body or Piaton's?

And how is it that so massive an undertaking as the building, stockpiling,
and launch of the _Whorl_ left no lasting echoes on Urth in Sev's day, just
a thousand years later? Sev and the Commonwealth seem completely ignorant of
it.

-Roy

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 17:29:58 +0000

...

Maybe I should apologize--you might have just gotten close to one of my
buttons rather than pushing it.

Jerry Friedman

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
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From: Ryan Thistlethwaite <shintemaster at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 14:03:06 +0000

***

I've just got online with the urthnet so please forgive my comments if
they've been outrageously dismissed!

I've been taking a look at this thread recently and having recently re-read
BotLS I had a thought on this...
There have been some ideas put forward w/regards to Pas being more
benevolent than his two headed counterpart... I've been wondering whether
his thoughts at the time, and I think all of us have noble thoughts
interspersed with our less admirable ones, may have contributed to this more
user-friendly Pas. i.e. When he was scanned into mainframe his thoughts were
on a particularly high spirited tilt... any thoughts?

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From: Hubert Rogers <hubert at ntlworld.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:18:31 +0000

>From TBoTNS we know that Typhon is an extremely clever person, so he
probably just knew that it would be better for his avatar Pas to be
benevolent so that the cargo of the Whorl wouldn't not rise up against him.
And another possibility is that Typhon knew that if Pas was a 100% copy of
Typhon but digital, then wouldn't he naturally be a rival and usurp him if
ever possible?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Thistlethwaite" <shintemaster at hotmail.com>
To: <urth at urth.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) Typhon vs. Pas

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From: Andrew Reeves <abreeves at mail.utexas.edu>
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:49:22 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Thistlethwaite" <shintemaster at hotmail.com>
To: <urth at urth.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:03 AM
Subject: Re: (urth) Typhon vs. Pas

> on a particularly high spirited tilt... any thoughts?
Well, I'm going to weigh in on this one.  The whole question floating around
seems to have been "Pas seems to be a better chap than Typhon off whom he
was scanned."  I disagree, and I will explain why.  When even the most evil
ruler is in charge of a nation, he has to, to some degree, behave with the
well being of his state in mind, if nothing else for the fact that if he
destroys his state with his depredations, then he has nothing off of which
to live.  Almost all leaders must as a rule operate according to their own
national interests or else not last long on the throne.

Pas, as a copy of Typhon, would still be megalomaniacal, but still acting in
accordance with the best interests of the Whorl, as the Whorl was his raison
d'something-or-other.

I do think that another big element of the Whorl going out was Tyhpon's
vanity ("look at this big-ass wonder that I have made," but acting in your
domain's interests often goes hand in hand with vanity.

Just my $.02.

Andrew

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