{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3551", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3551, "subject": "Pas's Two Heads", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-11-08T15:53:38+00:00", "last": "2002-11-08T20:49:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-11-08T15:53:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pas's Two Heads", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:24 PM 11/7/2002, Roy wrote:\nSo, when Typhon decided to build the _Whorl_ (for whatever reason), he *did\nnot* plan to have himself scanned as a two-headed god. At some point before\nthe launch, events overtook him. He was forced to change his original plans\nand have himself scanned *after* he had been grafted to Piaton. (Why he\ndidn't have himself poured into a custom-made, look-alike chem body, like\nLoris, and Potto, and the others, I don't know.) But, so far as I know,\nTyphon never set foot in the _Whorl_. There was *no reason* for his scanned,\ndigitized personality to have been depicted as two-headed. Given Typhon's\nvanity, it doesn't make sense for it to have been done that way.\n\nThe entire pantheon of Pas and his family and friends is all the more a\ntravesty, some sort of sick joke, apparently. Yet the manteions in the\npre-fabricated cities were built before the human cargo was put aboard. The\nSacred Windows, the gods in Mainframe, all of that seems to have been\nplanned from the beginning. Did Typhon's original plan call for him to be\nscanned as his one-headed self (with a new body)? Did he have time to have\nthe Writings composed to reflect his two-headed godhead, create the whole\nmythology that permeates the _Whorl_? Why bother? If he wanted to play god,\nhe didn't need to be two-headed to do it, and from his egocentric viewpoint,\nit wouldn't have been desirable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe. Maybe not. Janus of Rome was two-headed, and thereby ruled the past \nand the future. Typhon may well have wanted a two-headed image for Pas, so \nthat he was visibly greater than other gods. Think also of the \ndouble-headed eagle of Russia, and similar images. We don't know that Pas's \ntwo heads looked like Typhon and Piaton. They may have both looked like \nTyphon. Of course, on the other hand, the reason Pas is not as bad as \nTyphon may be because the second head is Piaton's, and Piaton's nature has \nbecome highly influential in Pas. I don't think we have the information to \ndecide about this.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-11-08T18:14:59+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Pas's Two Heads", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is nothing in the books which seems to me to suggest \nthat the appearance of the Gods of Mainframe is necessarily\nbased upon the appearance of the bodies in which they resode \nwhen they were scanned -- it seems to be more a matter of \neither self-image or a chosen image. (Does Tartaros manifest \nvisibly?) \n\nThe \"scan\" seems to be a sort of brain-snapshot, or perhaps \nsoul-snapshot. So even if it was taken when Typhon was \ngrafted onto Piaton, it would only be a scan of the one \nbrain.\n\nIt is not at all clear to me why Pas has two heads, but it \nseems clear that this is a choice Typhon made, either\nconsciously or un-. It might have some reference to the\nPiaton body; it seems likely to me that he would want to \nscan himself at the last possible moment before the launch \nof the _Whorl_, to preserve as much of his self as possible." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-11-08T20:18:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Pas's Two Heads", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l wrote:\nThere is nothing in the books which seems to me to suggest\nthat the appearance of the Gods of Mainframe is necessarily\nbased upon the appearance of the bodies in which they resode\nwhen they were scanned -- it seems to be more a matter of\neither self-image or a chosen image. (Does Tartaros manifest\nvisibly?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, he doesn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The \"scan\" seems to be a sort of brain-snapshot, or perhaps\nsoul-snapshot. So even if it was taken when Typhon was\ngrafted onto Piaton, it would only be a scan of the one\nbrain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Having been blind from birth, the scan of Tartaros is limited by the\nbiological abilities of the brain he was born with. Knowledge he acquired\nafter birth becomes a part of his personality, or whatever you want to call\nit that gets scanned, but he can't learn to see, not even digitally, because\nthe requisite areas of his brain were never developed, and no amount of\ncomputer-enhanced tinkering can change that. At least that is the essence of\nwhat he told Auk.\n\nI agree that Piaton's brain was unlikely to have been scanned. The only\nreason Typhon kept Piaton around at all was to handle biological functions\nthat Typhon's brain hadn't yet learned to assume. Typhon had no body to\nworry about in Mainframe, so Piaton was entirely superfluous.\n\nAs regards two-heads-being-better-than-one for inspiring or enhancing\nreligious awe, as Nutria suggests, I must have been born lacking that gene.\n A two-headed man is a freak, like a two-headed calf; the idea of\nworshiping such a thing would never cross my mind. Sev's thoughts on first\nseeing Typhon were:\n\n\"A man, larger than I and far broader of shoulder, stepped from between the\nfoot of a cataphract, and it was as though one of the monstrous\nconstellations of the night sky had fallen to Urth and clothed itself in the\nflesh of humankind. For the man had two heads, like an ogre in some\nforgotten tale in _The Wonders of Urth and Sky_.\n \"Instinctively, I put my hand on the sword hilt at my shoulder.\"\n\nSev's gut reaction was not to fall to his knees, but to grab a weapon. And\nthe more Sev found out about him, the less he liked him. Sev may have feared\nthe power of the monster, but that didn't stop him from killing it, having\nfirst refused, specifically and emphatically, to worship it.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-11-08T20:49:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Pas's Two Heads", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:18 PM 11/8/2002, you wrote:\nAs regards two-heads-being-better-than-one for inspiring or enhancing\nreligious awe, as Nutria suggests, I must have been born lacking that gene.\n A two-headed man is a freak, like a two-headed calf; the idea of\nworshiping such a thing would never cross my mind. Sev's thoughts on first\nseeing Typhon were:\n\n\"A man, larger than I and far broader of shoulder, stepped from between the\nfoot of a cataphract, and it was as though one of the monstrous\nconstellations of the night sky had fallen to Urth and clothed itself in the\nflesh of humankind. For the man had two heads, like an ogre in some\nforgotten tale in _The Wonders of Urth and Sky_.\n \"Instinctively, I put my hand on the sword hilt at my shoulder.\"\n\nSev's gut reaction was not to fall to his knees, but to grab a weapon. And\nthe more Sev found out about him, the less he liked him. Sev may have feared\nthe power of the monster, but that didn't stop him from killing it, having\nfirst refused, specifically and emphatically, to worship it.\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But then, why would Typhon make himself look like an ogre? My point was \nthat two-headed gods are not unknown, especially in Rome, and Rome is a big \ndeal for Wolfe. In the symbolism of the Whorl novels, the mainframe gods \nare like the Roman ones, the Whorl like the Roman empire, and Viron like \nIsrael at the time of Jesus. So a two-headed Roman god like Janus makes \nsense. The Romans did not view Janus as an ogre, however Severian might \nhave looked upon him.\n\nFWIW\n\nJBJordan" } ] } ] }