{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3556", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3556, "subject": "King Jesus/Autarch Severian/Calde Silk - Part Two", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-11-10T22:58:56+00:00", "last": "2002-11-12T09:21:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-10T22:58:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) King Jesus/Autarch Severian/Calde Silk - Part Two", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok, so here are some of my crazy theories vis a vis my \"enlightenment\" after\nreading King Jesus. A few of them bear directly on the current conversation\nregarding Typhon/Pas and his intentions with the Whorl. I'm still working\nmost of them out in my head so feel free to help me solidify them or debunk\nthem. It's the conversation that's\nmost important. Here we go.\n\nJesus is the grandson of Herod. If we accept that Severian is an echo of\nJesus and Silk is an echo of Severian then they must both be of the blood of\n\"Herod\". So who is \"Herod\". Silk is the easiest to figure out and I've\nalways felt this but now I am convinced. If Silk is not the son of Typhon,\nhe is either the grandson, or a clone. I like the clone idea because then\nSilk is the sun giving birth to himself as well as a descendant of Herod.\nIt also gives me great pleasure to imagine Silk's head on Typhon when\nreading Sword or UotNS. Plus one of Typhon's heads is blond. Which one is\nnever specified but Severian says that his stare \"was the poisoned regard of\nthe yellowbeard.\"(Urth p.274) I realize he is speaking metaphorically of a\nviper, but why use yellowbeard? And I doubt Pas is a faithful visual\nrepresentation of the\nreal Typhon. This also fills in several plot questions, such as how\nPas/Typhon intended to continue his rule on Blue and why Silk was invited to\nmerge with Pas. Silk is Typhon. It is the face that is most important.\nMaybe.\n\nTyphon is not Severian's father. I believe that Ymar is. More correctly,\nYmar is the original Severian and Severian is his khaibit. A major clue is\nthe psuedo koan involving Ymar beneath the plane tree. He follows a dog,\nlaughing. Laughing indeed. This is a parallel of Severian following\nTriskele and finding the Atrium of time- a time travel device. Severian is\nbeing disingenuous when he says he is not the first Severian. Only Ymar and\nthe previous Autarch went to Yesod and both failed (and were presumably\nunmanned). I believe the mausoleum where Severian played is Ymar's. As a\nkhaibit he is in a sense his own father and a son of a king. To carry this\nextravaganza further, I believe that Typhon may be Ymar's father, mainly\nbecause of the Tale of the Boy Called Frog. Spring Wind could be another\nname for Typhon and the Black Killer is the Torturer's Guild who protects\nFrog. Both Ymar and Severian are sheltered in the Guild. Strange\ncoincidence from an author who is not known to be coincidental. Plus, this\nmakes Silk and Severian not only of Herod's bloodline but it also makes them\ncousins (I think). This is really stretching but l have to indulge myself.\nAssuming that Blue is Ushas (which I am nearly certain of, but that's\nanother can of worms) Silk, by travelling through time, can be John to\nSeverian's Jesus while Severian (who makes many appearances throughout SS\nimho) can be John to Silk's Jesus on Blue/Ushas. I know that's a stretch\nbut the Moebius strip logic of it entertains me immensely. I also think\nthat the Mandragora is also Severian (a failed clone) and that Valeria is\nhis sister (if he even has one).\n\nThat's all I have to offer at the moment. I haven't gotten to a second\nreading of LS or SS though I thumb through them often enough. One parallel\nthat I forgot to mention between Graves' Jesus and Severian and Silk is that\nnone of them are truly divine. So that's it. I am afraid that my arguments\nhave been as convoluted as Robert Graves' own and not one thousandth as\nscholarly, but I hope they are worth reading.\n\"Jesus added boldly: 'Let any man dispute this who dare!'\"\n\nD.D." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-11-12T09:21:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) King Jesus/Autarch Severian/Calde Silk - Part Two", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don Doggett:\nFirst of all, I would like to welcome you to the list, if I may so presume.\nWhether I agree with your theories or not, I like your style and ability to\nexpress yourself cogently. In fact, I confess to having been pleasantly\nsurprised by the writing abilities of several of the newer, younger (at\nleast I assume they are young) posters who have been cropping up here in\nrecent months.\n\nI haven't read KING JESUS, so I can't knowledgeably comment on your theory\nof parallels with the SUN books. Just a few points:\n\nDon Doggett wrote:\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This also fills in several plot questions, such as how\nPas/Typhon intended to continue his rule on Blue and why Silk was invited\nto\nmerge with Pas. Silk is Typhon. It is the face that is most important.\nMaybe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk is so unlike Typhon that it's hard to imagine him as a clone. If he\nwas, nurture rode roughshod over nature to an alarming degree, rendering a\nfinal product so at variance with the original that it would have been\ncompletely unacceptable to a megalomaniac like Typhon. Also, had Typhon been\nin possession of a cloned, frozen embryo he believed to be perfectly viable,\nto which he planned, somehow, to transfer his personality at the conclusion\nof the _Whorl's_ journey, do you think he would have stored it anywhere that\na member of the cargo could possibly have gotten their hands on it? I think\nnot.\n\nFurther, had Typhon such a cloned embryo, it could have been brought to\nmaturity in the same time that was needed to build the _Whorl_. If the\ntechnique of \"possession\" via the eyes were known *before* the _Whorl_ was\nlaunched, then Typhon had to hand a better means of extending his biological\nlife than grafting his own head to another body. Plant the embryo; wait for\nit to grow while the ship was being built. When Typhon's head was cut off he\nwas, in effect, dead. If he had been scanned immediately prior to\ndecapitation, the scanned image could then be transferred to the clone and\nTyphon has his new body, same face and all. More certain than waking up\nafter decollation.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is really stretching but l have to indulge myself.\nAssuming that Blue is Ushas (which I am nearly certain of, but that's\nanother can of worms) Silk, by travelling through time, can be John to" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you've read the archives, then you know I have argued that Blue isn't\nUshas, so I won't repeat my arguments. I believe, and consensus here seems\nto be, that what Silkhorn does when he travels by spirit does *not* involve\ntime travel.\n\nAs Hammerstone explained to Silk, the _Whorl_ seems to have been designed to\nlast for a period of only about 250 years. That's why so many things in the\nship are breaking down in Silk's day. So, Typhon intended a voyage with a\ndestination something less that 250 light years from Urth. Traveling at\nsomething below light speed, subjective time on the ship was about 1/3 of a\nmillenium, while on Urth a full millenium had passed from Typhon's day to\nSev's. When Silkhorn traveled to Urth, he was traversing space, not time\ntraveling. The passage of time on Blue was the same as on Urth. When Horn\nfirst landed on Blue, it was a few years before Sev was born. It's why, when\nSilkhorn and the others went to Urth and found themselves on the _Samru_,\nthen went back to Blue, Silkhorn was allowing for the distance the _Samru_\nwould have traveled downstream in their absence. (WHORL, 350) This is also\nanother argument against Blue being Ushas. Urth and Blue are quite a few\nlight years apart, and Ushas is more than fifty years in Urth's future,\ntherefore more than fifty years in Silkhorn's future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian's Jesus while Severian (who makes many appearances throughout SS\nimho) can be John to Silk's Jesus on Blue/Ushas. I know that's a stretch\nbut the Moebius strip logic of it entertains me immensely. I also think\nthat the Mandragora is also Severian (a failed clone) and that Valeria is\nhis sister (if he even has one)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Other than the obvious appearances we all know about, where does Sev show up\nin SS?\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }