{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3560", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3560, "subject": "time/space - whorl purpose, Pas heads", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-11-12T18:53:27+00:00", "last": "2002-11-13T07:49:34+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2002-11-12T18:53:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) time/space - whorl purpose, Pas heads", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy stated that the time travelled by the Samru was accounted for by Silk \nbefore he returned. I say that the DISTANCE was accounted for - he needed to \nbe in the same place to reach back to where the Samru encountered the Mother; \nSilk can overcome both distance and time in his travels. It is very difficult \nto separate distance and time, but keep in mind how the narrator goes on ad \nnauseum about the symbolic anchor - an item which keeps one in one place.\n\nMy evidence for time travel is as follows: Silk appears in the story of \nInclito's mother. It isn't her made up story - it's real, and Silk dreams it \nand makes it real by manifesting himself in her past. In a way, it's kind of \nPhilip K. Dickish - Silk's dreams affect the past. Reality depends on his \nmind. Perhaps he is a bit more of the primary observer than we at first \nbelieve.\n\nAlso, the real purpose of the whorl is quite simple - it is the second stage \nof (re)colonization from the stars that is heralded in with the play \nEschatology and Genesis. Meschia and Meschiane have come - and they are the \nnew people - the people from the beginning (or at least Typhonic times) come \nto repopulate the world and do it in a shocking fashion - by becoming the \nGreen Man. Riddle me this - where do Meschia and Meschiane come from? They \nspring from a tree. Where do A man and Wo man go? Up a tree, and they don't \ncome down.\n\nTyphon wants to re-establish his authority after he's gone - and the best \nreason for having two heads is because Gene Wolfe wants us to recognize Pas \nand associate him with the Typhon of Urth - Typhon's desires don't matter - \nit's an authorial tip of the hat to us, his careful readers, who would have \nrecognized the double headed motiff far before Typhon's name was ever, ever \nmentioned in the text, way back when we first picked up Nightside the Long \nSun. That's why Pas has two heads.\n\nWhatever your stance on Blue as Ushas, you have to admit that Horn, with the \nhelp of the trees, flees Silk's body at the end of On Blue's Water and leaves \nus with mostly Silk. And it is Silk's body which has these miraculous powers \n- Horn can only travel in conjunction with the vanished gods (trees) or the \nvanished people. (Of course, Silk carries an inhuma of his own with him at \nall times)\n\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-11-12T19:57:19+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) time/space - whorl purpose, Pas heads", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whatever your stance on Blue as Ushas, you have to admit that \nHorn, with the help of the trees, flees Silk's body at the\nend of On Blue's Water and leaves us with mostly Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, with the exception of the parenthetical \"with the help\nof the trees,\" that seems very likely at this point." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-11-13T07:49:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) time/space - whorl purpose, Pas heads", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nMy evidence for time travel is as follows: Silk appears in the story of\nInclito's mother. It isn't her made up story - it's real, and Silk dreams\nit" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and makes it real by manifesting himself in her past. In a way, it's kind\nof\nPhilip K. Dickish - Silk's dreams affect the past. Reality depends on his\nmind. Perhaps he is a bit more of the primary observer than we at first\nbelieve.<<\n\n_If_ the strego and talking bird in Salica's story are Silk and Oreb (which\nseems probable), and _if_ the story is true, then a supernatural event\noccurred (like Pike's ghost at the manse). It occurred before either Silk or\nOreb were even born, to people he never knew, in a place he had never been.\nThat is \"contrary to everyday experience\". Salica is a minor character, even\nin IGJ. She is of no great consequence to Silk in either the LS or SS books.\nSilk was not dreaming when she told her story, had never laid eyes on her\nbefore that day, and had no reason to travel in time, even if he had the\nability, to appear to her old servant and spurned suitor. What would have\nbeen the point? I don't know why he was in her story, but the fact that he\nwas doesn't constitute proof of time travel.\n\nIf Silkhorn had the ability to travel in time, he could have done many more\nthings with the ability that were of much more import to himself, his\nfriends, his causes, than what amounts to a pointless parlor trick. Like\nkeep Horn from falling in that pit. Avoiding all sorts of personal travails.\nKeep Krait from taking a bullet. Saving Seawrack's arm, etc., etc.\n\nIIRC, each time Silkhorn uses his dream-travel to go to the same place more\nthan once, each subsequent trip follows, temporally, those that had come\nbefore, in the customary sequence of events. He never goes back to a time\nbefore an earlier trip to change anything.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }