{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3562", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3562, "subject": "Recollect ther craws, bucky?", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-11-13T14:34:20+00:00", "last": "2002-11-13T22:33:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-11-13T14:34:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Recollect ther craws, bucky?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello everyone.\n\nI'm not a complete stranger here, but I haven't been a frequent \nparticipant, either. Still, I was hoping that somebody could help me \nout. I've just completed my second reading of the Short Sun books and \nhave at least one question that I haven't been able to figure out. \n Allow me to set the stage:\n\nAt the very end of Chapter 12 in RttW, Horn finally arrived at Ermine's \nafter several interesting adventures (visiting the Sun Street manteion, \nmeeting and having a drink with his father, being waylaid by Olivine at \nthe Calde's palace and taken into the palace through a secret gate, \nvisiting the room he and Nettle stayed in for a short time (I think), \nbathing and getting clean clothes, shriving and then receiving an eye \nfrom Olivine). Patera Gulo had been at Ermine's ahead of him, looking \nfor Silk, but all that Horn wanted to do was to lie down. After \nsleeping for a bit, and making sure that Hound and Pig were asleep, he \nslipped out of the room and headed downstairs to the garden fountain \n\"where Thelx holds up a mirror.\" He then went back to the Calde's \npalace to get his walking stick before going back to the room. Upon \nentering the room, we have the following exchange:\n\n As he put the key back into the lock, Pig asked sleepily, \"Recollect \nther craws, bucky?\"\n It took a moment. \"Why, yes. Yes, I do, Pig.\"\n \"Still say ther same?\"\n\nAnd that's the end of the chapter. I've puzzled and puzzled over this \npassage, but I can't figure out what it means. Can any of you shed any \nlight on this for me?\n\nCharles (still mulling over Vironese names, but leaning toward \"Whisker\")" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-11-13T14:51:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Recollect ther craws, bucky?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think craws = crows, which took a part earlier: I can't entirely remember\nwhat\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n\n---- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Charles Reed\" \nTo: \"urth\" \nSent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 2:34 PM\nSubject: (urth) Recollect ther craws, bucky?\nHello everyone.\n\nI'm not a complete stranger here, but I haven't been a frequent\nparticipant, either. Still, I was hoping that somebody could help me\nout. I've just completed my second reading of the Short Sun books and\nhave at least one question that I haven't been able to figure out.\n Allow me to set the stage:\n\nAt the very end of Chapter 12 in RttW, Horn finally arrived at Ermine's\nafter several interesting adventures (visiting the Sun Street manteion,\nmeeting and having a drink with his father, being waylaid by Olivine at\nthe Calde's palace and taken into the palace through a secret gate,\nvisiting the room he and Nettle stayed in for a short time (I think),\nbathing and getting clean clothes, shriving and then receiving an eye\nfrom Olivine). Patera Gulo had been at Ermine's ahead of him, looking\nfor Silk, but all that Horn wanted to do was to lie down. After\nsleeping for a bit, and making sure that Hound and Pig were asleep, he\nslipped out of the room and headed downstairs to the garden fountain\n\"where Thelx holds up a mirror.\" He then went back to the Calde's\npalace to get his walking stick before going back to the room. Upon\nentering the room, we have the following exchange:\n\n As he put the key back into the lock, Pig asked sleepily, \"Recollect\nther craws, bucky?\"\n It took a moment. \"Why, yes. Yes, I do, Pig.\"\n \"Still say ther same?\"\n\nAnd that's the end of the chapter. I've puzzled and puzzled over this\npassage, but I can't figure out what it means. Can any of you shed any\nlight on this for me?\n\nCharles (still mulling over Vironese names, but leaning toward \"Whisker\")\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-11-13T21:12:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Recollect ther craws, bucky?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the pointer, hartshorn. It allowed me to find the answer to \nmy question. Not that anybody else is interested, but the answer is \nthat in chapter 10 of RttW, as Horn and Pig are entering Viron, we have \nthe following exchange:\n\n Just then a flock of crows passed overhead, wheeling\n and cawing; hearing them, Pig asked, \"What're they sayin',\n bucky? Yer h'always ken what H'oreb's says, sae what\n h'about those?\"\n He looked to the skylands, and seemed for a moment to\n have forgotten his companions and himself. \"'Tomorrow,\n tomorrow, tomorrow.' I think they mean I'll find Silk\n tomorrow, though I've found him already; but they may also\n mean you'll find new eyes tomorrow. I hope so.\"\n\nIt's just Pig asking whether Horn still thinks still thinks they'll find \nwhat they're looking for tomorrow. Not profound, but it's still nice to \nknow what that passage means. It's also rather touching, as if a child \nwere asking its parent whether everything's going to be all right.\n\nOf course, nothing's really that simple is it? I love Wolfe's writing \nbecause the more work you put into it, the more you get out of it: \n Horn's interpretation of the crows' cawing strongly echoes the words of \nthat short-lived Scottish king who had just been informed that his wife \nwas dead:\n\n She should have died hereafter;\n There would have been a time for such word.\n To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,\n Creeps in this petty pace from day to day\n To the last syllable of recorded time,\n And all our yesterdays have lighted fools\n The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!\n Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player\n That struts and frets his hour upon the stage\n And then is heard no more: it is a tale\n Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury\n Signifying nothing.\n\nI'm not exactly sure how Macbeth's tale resonates with Horn and Silk's, \nbut another quotation is illuminating:\n\n MACBETH\n How does your patient, doctor?\n\n DOCTOR\n Not so sick, my lord,\n As she is troubled with thick coming fancies,\n That keep her from her rest.\n\n MACBETH\n Cure her of that.\n Canst thou not minister to a mind diseased,\n Pluck from the memory a rooted sorrow,\n Raze out the written troubles of the brain\n And with some sweet oblivious antidote\n Cleanse the stuff'd bosom of that perilous stuff\n Which weighs upon the heart?\n\n DOCTOR\n Therein the patient\n Must minister to himself.\n\nBut this is exactly what had happened to Silk, isn't it? He was in \nabsolute despair over the death of Hyacinth. His spirit, according to \nthe Neighbor who helped Horn on Green, was dying. Even so, the infusion \nof Horn's spirit into his body successfully (at least temporarily) did \nin fact pluck from the memory a rooted sorrow and cleanse his stuff'd \nbosom of that perilous stuff which weighed upon it. \n\nVery nice.\n\nCharles\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andy Robertson wrote:\nI think craws = crows, which took a part earlier: I can't entirely \nremember\nwhat\n\nhartshorn\n\n\n\n---- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Charles Reed\" \nTo: \"urth\" \nSent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 2:34 PM\nSubject: (urth) Recollect ther craws, bucky?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hello everyone.\n\nI'm not a complete stranger here, but I haven't been a frequent\nparticipant, either. Still, I was hoping that somebody could help me\nout. I've just completed my second reading of the Short Sun books and\nhave at least one question that I haven't been able to figure out.\nAllow me to set the stage:\n\nAt the very end of Chapter 12 in RttW, Horn finally arrived at Ermine's\nafter several interesting adventures (visiting the Sun Street manteion,\nmeeting and having a drink with his father, being waylaid by Olivine at\nthe Calde's palace and taken into the palace through a secret gate,\nvisiting the room he and Nettle stayed in for a short time (I think),\nbathing and getting clean clothes, shriving and then receiving an eye\nfrom Olivine). Patera Gulo had been at Ermine's ahead of him, looking\nfor Silk, but all that Horn wanted to do was to lie down. After\nsleeping for a bit, and making sure that Hound and Pig were asleep, he\nslipped out of the room and headed downstairs to the garden fountain\n\"where Thelx holds up a mirror.\" He then went back to the Calde's\npalace to get his walking stick before going back to the room. Upon\nentering the room, we have the following exchange:\n\nAs he put the key back into the lock, Pig asked sleepily, \"Recollect\nther craws, bucky?\"\nIt took a moment. \"Why, yes. Yes, I do, Pig.\"\n\"Still say ther same?\"\n\nAnd that's the end of the chapter. I've puzzled and puzzled over this\npassage, but I can't figure out what it means. Can any of you shed any\nlight on this for me?\n\nCharles (still mulling over Vironese names, but leaning toward \"Whisker\")\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-11-13T21:50:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Recollect ther craws, bucky?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! Another link!\n\nI had not made the MacBeth connection.\n\nBut by an odd coincidence, this is the second time that play has come up in\ntwo days. Last night I was singing in a folk club, and I sang Tom O'Bedlam\n\n\n\n\nFrom ye hagg & hungry Goblin,\nYt into raggs would rend yee,\n& ye spirit yt stand's by ye naked man,\nin ye booke of moones defend yee\nThat of your fiue sounde sences,\nyou neuer be forsaken,\nNor wander from your selues with Tom,\nabroad to begg your bacon\n\n\nwhile I doe sing any foode any feeding,\nfeedinge drinke or clothing,\nCome dame or maid, be not afraid,\npoore Tom will iniure nothing.\n\nOf thirty bare yeares haue I\ntwice twenty bin enraged,\n& of forty bin three tymes fifteene\nin durance soundlie caged,\nOn ye lordlie loftes of Bedlam\nwith Stubble soft & dainty,\nbraue braceletts Strong, sweet whips ding dong\nwith wholsome hunger plenty,\n\n\n& nowe I sing &c:\n\nWith a thought I tooke for Maudline\n& a cruse of cockle pottage.\nwith a thing thus tall, skie blesse you all:\nI befell into this dotage.\nI slept not since the Conquest\ntill then I neuer waked,\nTill ye rogysh boy of loue where I lay\nmee found & strip't mee naked.\n\n\n& nowe I sing &c:\n\nWhen I short haue shorne my sowce face\n& swigg'd my horny barrell,\nIn an oken Inne I pound my skin\nas a suite of guilt apparrell,\nThe moon's my constant Mistresse\n& the lowlie owie my morrowe.\nThe flaming Drake and ye Nightcrowe make\nmee musicke to my sorrowe.\n\n\nwhile I doe sing &c:\n\nThe palsie plagues my pulses\nwhen I prigg yor: piggs or pullen\nyour culuers take, or matchles make\nyour Chanticleare or sullen,\nWhen I want prouant th Humfrie\nI sup, & when benighted,\nI repose in Powles wth waking soules,\nYet neuer am affrighted.\n\n\nBut I doe sing &c:\n\nI knowe more then Apollo,\nfor oft when hee ly's sleeping\nI see ye starrs att bloudie warres\nin ye wounded welkin weeping,\nThe moone embrace her shepheard\n& ye queene of loue her warryer,\nwhile ye first doth horne, ye star of morne:\n& ye next ye heauenly Farrier.\n\n\nWhile I doe singe &c:\n\nThe Gipsie snap & Pedro\nare none of Toms Comradoes,\nye punck I skorne, & ye cutpurse sworn\n& ye roring boyes brauadoes,\nThe meeke ye white the gentle,\nmee handle touch, & spare not\nbut those yt crosse Tom Rynosseross\ndoe what ye Panther dare not.\n\n\nAlthough I sing &c:\n\nwith an hoast of furious fancies\nwhereof I am comaunder,\nwith a burning speare, & a horse of aire,\nto the wildernesse I wander.\nBy a knight of ghostes & shadowes,\nI sumon'd am to Tourney.\nten leagues beyond the wide worlds end\nmee thinke it is noe iourney.\n\n\nyet will I sing &c:\n\n\n\n\n\nSome people asked me afterwards, and I was able to point out the Macbeth\nconnection here: \"poor Tom's a-cold\", and so forth.\n\n Indeed Pig and Silk are in their different ways very like Abraham-men,\nprofessional wandering madmen.\n\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Charles Reed\" \nTo: \nSent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:12 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Recollect ther craws, bucky?\nThanks for the pointer, hartshorn. It allowed me to find the answer to\nmy question. Not that anybody else is interested, but the answer is\nthat in chapter 10 of RttW, as Horn and Pig are entering Viron, we have\nthe following exchange:\n\n Just then a flock of crows passed overhead, wheeling\n and cawing; hearing them, Pig asked, \"What're they sayin',\n bucky? Yer h'always ken what H'oreb's says, sae what\n h'about those?\"\n He looked to the skylands, and seemed for a moment to\n have forgotten his companions and himself. \"'Tomorrow,\n tomorrow, tomorrow.' I think they mean I'll find Silk\n tomorrow, though I've found him already; but they may also\n mean you'll find new eyes tomorrow. I hope so.\"\n\nIt's just Pig asking whether Horn still thinks still thinks they'll find\nwhat they're looking for tomorrow. Not profound, but it's still nice to\nknow what that passage means. It's also rather touching, as if a child\nwere asking its parent whether everything's going to be all right.\n\nOf course, nothing's really that simple is it? I love Wolfe's writing\nbecause the more work you put into it, the more you get out of it:\n Horn's interpretation of the crows' cawing strongly echoes the words of\nthat short-lived Scottish king who had just been informed that his wife\nwas dead:\n\n She should have died hereafter;\n There would have been a time for such word.\n To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,\n Creeps in this petty pace from day to day\n To the last syllable of recorded time,\n And all our yesterdays have lighted fools\n The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!\n Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player\n That struts and frets his hour upon the stage\n And then is heard no more: it is a tale\n Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury\n Signifying nothing.\n\nI'm not exactly sure how Macbeth's tale resonates with Horn and Silk's,\nbut another quotation is illuminating:\n\n MACBETH\n How does your patient, doctor?\n\n DOCTOR\n Not so sick, my lord,\n As she is troubled with thick coming fancies,\n That keep her from her rest.\n\n MACBETH\n Cure her of that.\n Canst thou not minister to a mind diseased,\n Pluck from the memory a rooted sorrow,\n Raze out the written troubles of the brain\n And with some sweet oblivious antidote\n Cleanse the stuff'd bosom of that perilous stuff\n Which weighs upon the heart?\n\n DOCTOR\n Therein the patient\n Must minister to himself.\n\nBut this is exactly what had happened to Silk, isn't it? He was in\nabsolute despair over the death of Hyacinth. His spirit, according to\nthe Neighbor who helped Horn on Green, was dying. Even so, the infusion\nof Horn's spirit into his body successfully (at least temporarily) did\nin fact pluck from the memory a rooted sorrow and cleanse his stuff'd\nbosom of that perilous stuff which weighed upon it.\n\nVery nice.\n\nCharles\n\n\n\nAndy Robertson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think craws = crows, which took a part earlier: I can't entirely\nremember\nwhat\n\nhartshorn\n\n\n\n---- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Charles Reed\" \nTo: \"urth\" \nSent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 2:34 PM\nSubject: (urth) Recollect ther craws, bucky?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hello everyone.\n\nI'm not a complete stranger here, but I haven't been a frequent\nparticipant, either. Still, I was hoping that somebody could help me\nout. I've just completed my second reading of the Short Sun books and\nhave at least one question that I haven't been able to figure out.\nAllow me to set the stage:\n\nAt the very end of Chapter 12 in RttW, Horn finally arrived at Ermine's\nafter several interesting adventures (visiting the Sun Street manteion,\nmeeting and having a drink with his father, being waylaid by Olivine at\nthe Calde's palace and taken into the palace through a secret gate,\nvisiting the room he and Nettle stayed in for a short time (I think),\nbathing and getting clean clothes, shriving and then receiving an eye\nfrom Olivine). Patera Gulo had been at Ermine's ahead of him, looking\nfor Silk, but all that Horn wanted to do was to lie down. After\nsleeping for a bit, and making sure that Hound and Pig were asleep, he\nslipped out of the room and headed downstairs to the garden fountain\n\"where Thelx holds up a mirror.\" He then went back to the Calde's\npalace to get his walking stick before going back to the room. Upon\nentering the room, we have the following exchange:\n\nAs he put the key back into the lock, Pig asked sleepily, \"Recollect\nther craws, bucky?\"\nIt took a moment. \"Why, yes. Yes, I do, Pig.\"\n\"Still say ther same?\"\n\nAnd that's the end of the chapter. I've puzzled and puzzled over this\npassage, but I can't figure out what it means. Can any of you shed any\nlight on this for me?\n\nCharles (still mulling over Vironese names, but leaning toward\n\"Whisker\")\n\n\n--" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2002-11-13T22:33:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Recollect ther craws, bucky?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 03:12 PM 11/13/2002 -0600, \"Charles Reed\" wrote:\nThanks for the pointer, hartshorn. It allowed me to find the answer to my \nquestion. Not that anybody else is interested," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but I am! Thanks for posting this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but the answer is that in chapter 10 of RttW, as Horn and Pig are entering \nViron, we have the following exchange:\n\n Just then a flock of crows passed overhead, wheeling\n and cawing; hearing them, Pig asked, \"What're they sayin',\n bucky? Yer h'always ken what H'oreb's says, sae what\n h'about those?\"\n He looked to the skylands, and seemed for a moment to\n have forgotten his companions and himself. \"'Tomorrow,\n tomorrow, tomorrow.' I think they mean I'll find Silk\n tomorrow, though I've found him already; but they may also\n mean you'll find new eyes tomorrow. I hope so.\"\n\nIt's just Pig asking whether Horn still thinks still thinks they'll find \nwhat they're looking for tomorrow. Not profound, but it's still nice to \nknow what that passage means. It's also rather touching, as if a child \nwere asking its parent whether everything's going to be all right.\n\nOf course, nothing's really that simple is it? I love Wolfe's writing \nbecause the more work you put into it, the more you get out of it ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, indeed. I am sure that John Crowley used the idea of crows saying \n\"tomorrow\" in _Little, Big_. I don't have the book here to check but, as I \nrecall, Smoky Barnable heard some crows saying \"cras, cras\" which he knew \nmeans \"tomorrow, tomorrow\" in Latin. We know that Wolfe is familiar with \nJohn Crowley's books, especially LB. I assumed that someone else must have \npointed this out, but I couldn't find any mention of this in a brief search \nof the Urth/Whorl archives.\n\nApparently, the belief that ravens, at least, had knowledge of the future \nbecause they were heard to say \"cras, cras,\" was widespread among ancient \nRomans.\n\nI took the following quote from the web page at \n:\n\n-------------------------------\nThe raven's cry of \"Cras! Cras!\" was interpreted by Latin speakers to mean \n\"Tomorrow! Tomorrow!\" Therefore it became a symbol of the foolish sinner \nwho puts off conversion. Others, however, found in this cry a symbol of the \nhope of a new and better day.\n-------------------------------\n\nThe whole page is a bit lengthy, but very interesting reading.\n\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] } ] }