{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3567", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3567, "subject": "Blue as Ushas - long", "messages": 14, "voices": 7, "first": "2002-11-15T07:26:36+00:00", "last": "2002-11-18T19:51:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-15T07:26:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Blue as Ushas - long", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello all,\n\nThis subject is probably the most important one to me regarding the Sun\nBooks. It's the reason I found this site and the ultimate reason I decided\nto join this list. Let me give a little preface before I start in. When I\nread TBotNS I was literally blown away. I picked it up and couldn't put it\ndown. It was epic, and it was obvious to me that I was missing at least\nninety percent of what was going on and that I would have to read it again.\nBut first I decided to read TBotLS. I have to say that it is the only book\nI have read that forced me to love it. By that I mean that even though I\nwas disappointed by its lack of epic scope, I couldn't and still can't get\nthe characters out of my head. But I was disappointed. What besides\nTyphon, did this work have to do with Severian's universe? It was a long\ntime before I picked up SS, and I did it mainly because of a need to finish\nthe story. It is easily the most confusing of the three works (to me) but I\nas I worked my way through it a feeling grew and grew on me that I was in a\nfamiliar place. By the end of it all, the only way I felt the books could\nwork was if the Whorl had somehow made it's way back to Urth. To Ushas and\nthe New Sun. But how could I discover if this was the case? The internet,\nof course. I went to Google, typed in \"Blue\" and \"Ushas\" and here I am.\n In my opinion, Marc Aramini has made very compelling arguments as to why\nBlue is indeed Ushas. There's no need to reiterate them. But there are\nsome holes in his theory - one big one - which I hope to be able to fill.\nAt the least I hope I can shrink them. So here goes.\n I'll begin my argument thematically. It hinges on two points and I'll\nstate them succinctly. In the NS, Wolfe makes it clear that there are other\ncolonies of humans out in space. He makes it equally clear that it is Urth\nthat is important to him thematically (see Father Inire's letter). His work\nis ultimately about us, on Urth (earth). What does a Starcrosser travelling\nto a random world in a universe full of human expats have to do with us?\nNothing. It's just standard (boring) Sci Fi. That was my original problem\nwith LS. Second, what does SS have to do with Severian? Why have Silk\nastral project to Urth to speak with him? It reeks of a cheap attempt to\ntie the entire series to the unrelated first volume. Silk meets Severian.\nGodzilla meets King Kong. Dracula meets the Wolfman. I don't like it and I\ndon't believe it. In short, Blue as Ushas is stronger thematically as it\nbrings both later series back to us. Of course, just because it makes me\nhappy doesn't make it true.\n Marc's theories, as far as they go, seem sound to me. The theoretical\npossibility of polyploidy in plant/animal hybrids (hybrids that are alluded\nto in the very names of the Vironese - male/animal female/plant) lower\ngravity on Green, even Silkhorn's time travel. All of his points are\nplausible but there are a few things which he hasn't been able to get\naround.\n The first is Silkhorn's description of the red sun as a star in the\nnight sky of Blue. This I think, is Wolfe's dirtiest trick and my solution\nis simple. Silk is wrong. In both series he makes a cottage industry out\nof being wrong. For one thing he is never described as looking at the red\nsun in Blue's sky. He is inside when he is talking to Juganu and he says\n\"Standing on the tiles I will point and you will peer until at last you see\na certain dim red star.\" He never says \"I have seen this star.\" nor is he\nor anyone else described as seeing this star. It neither proves nor\ndisproves that Blue is not Ushas.\n The second is when Silkhorn says to Hide that the Neighbors are not made\nfrom the same dust as they are - meaning that they are not from the same\nplanet. But why would the author bother to say something like this when it\nshould be obvious. Silkhorn is once again wrong (his most endearing trait,\nI think) and this is a rhetorical device by the author (Wolfe) to make us\nthink about this supposedly obvious fact.\n The third (and last objection that I plan to deal with) is the biggest\nand the hardest to surmount. The Whorl left from Urth in the Age of the\nMonarch and the only way it could end up in the time of Ushas is for it to\ntravel faster than light. The argument is that there is not any good\nevidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to claim that it did. Not so. I did\nsome very cursory study of faster than light travel and one of the\ntheoretical occurences when something goes ftl is that time stops. This\nhappens on the first page (god, I love Wolfe) on Nightside of the Long Sun.\nWhen Silk is enlightened, he is aware that time has stopped. I know that\nMr. Wolfe has said in an interview that the enlightenment of Silk is purely\nmiraculous but this is a tricky statement. Silk's miraculous enlightenment\nis in his awareness, not in the stoppage of time. This, coupled with\nMaytera Marble's internal clock being off by 3000 years (an otherwise\npointless bit of trivia) is enough circumstantial evidence to at least drag\nthe argument into the realm of plausibility.\n Wow, you say. That's a big bunch of nothin'. Well I have one more\nthing and believe it or not, it is extratextual evidence that Blue is likely\nUshas. It is an entry in Mantis' very fine Lexicon Urthus regarding THE OLD\nWOMAN WHOSE ROLLING PIN IS THE SUN. Now I haven't read this story so all I\ncan comment on is the entry. I'll quote the relevant parts for those who\ndon't have the book, and those who do can verify I'm not being misleading.\n\nThe Old Woman Whose Rolling Pin is the Sun - a short tale, told by a man to\nhis grand daughter Becca, explaining the nature of the cosmos: . . . The\nstory makes reference to \"our longfather,\" a culture hero who went to the\nstars. . .\nCommentary: Wolfe has a few stories that deal explicitly with the zodiac. .\n. but this one seems tied to the Urth Cycle by a few points, the most\napparent being the name \"Skuld\" for the planet Venus, another being the\nreference to Fauna, who appears in a story in the brown book. The\n\"longfather\" might be another avatar of the New Sun, or a later name for The\nSleeper god of Ushas. The astronomy of the story shows that it is taking\nplace in the northern hemisphere, and that the stars are in the same\npositions that they are today, so the story is probably set in the Age of\nUshas.\n\nI don't know about you, but that \"longfather\" sounds a lot to me like a\ncertain FATHER Silk, aka the LONG Sun, who is fast becoming a culture hero\nof Blue, and who heads off to the stars at the end of Return to the Whorl.\nAnd that my friends, is the most compelling argument I have.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-11-15T16:19:02+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Blue as Ushas - long", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don posits:\nThe Whorl left from Urth in the Age of the\nMonarch and the only way it could end up in the time of Ushas is for it to\ntravel faster than light. The argument is that there is not any good\nevidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to claim that it did. Not so. I did\nsome very cursory study of faster than light travel and one of the\ntheoretical occurences when something goes ftl is that time stops. This\nhappens on the first page (god, I love Wolfe) on Nightside of the Long Sun.\nWhen Silk is enlightened, he is aware that time has stopped.\n\nCrush responds:\nI'm really not qualified to say much about your other arguments (except that\nI am intrigued by your \"longfather\" tie-in) but on *this* I'm have problem.\n\nSilk is not only \"aware\" that Time has stopped. He says he was *outside*\nTime. The speed in which Time is moving at the \"time\" of his enlightenment\nis irrelevant to him since such differences only matters from the\nperspective of persons *in* Time. So the Time stoppage for Silk doesn't tell\nus anything either way.\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-11-16T05:48:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue as Ushas - long", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don Doggett wrote:\n I'll begin my argument thematically. It hinges on two points and I'll\nstate them succinctly. In the NS, Wolfe makes it clear that there are\nother\ncolonies of humans out in space. He makes it equally clear that it is Urth\nthat is important to him thematically (see Father Inire's letter). His\nwork\nis ultimately about us, on Urth (earth). What does a Starcrosser\ntravelling\nto a random world in a universe full of human expats have to do with us?\nNothing. It's just standard (boring) Sci Fi. That was my original problem\nwith LS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather than argue the nuts-and-bolts, let me address the thematic\nobjections. As you acknowledge, the galaxy had been conquered long ago by\nthe First Empire. The effect of Urth being turned into Ushas was largely\nsymbolic; it wasn't going to wipe out the human race. It was much too late\nfor that. The wounding of Urth's sun, whether directly by Typhon's actions\nor as retribution for them, had no galaxy-wide ripple effect. Agents of the\nIncreate, judging from Apheta's testimony, were constrained, somewhat, by\nthe laws of physics from punishment en masse.\n\nTo credit the two-headed madman Sev met on the mountain in the Age of the\nMonarch with building and launching the _Whorl_ with the intent of having it\nreturn, a thousand years in the future, to restock the planet with the flora\nand fauna and, especially, the people of old Urth, presupposes that Typhon\nknew the future. More specifically, that Typhon knew that the Conciliator\nwould come, that the New Sun would supplant him, that all his works,\nincluding his monumental carved mountain, would be drowned with little or no\ntrace remaining to show that he had ever existed. That is not the\nmegalomaniac I read about in NS. Typhon was a bad guy, not a savior. Typhon\nwas emblematic of the problem, not the solution.\n\nUnless you are suggesting that Typhon launched the _Whorl_ for his own\nreasons that had nothing to do with a planned return to either Urth or\nUshas--that if it did return to the planet from which it was launched, it\ndid so by accident or third-party design--then I don't see how Blue can be\nUshas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Second, what does SS have to do with Severian? Why have Silk\nastral project to Urth to speak with him? It reeks of a cheap attempt to\ntie the entire series to the unrelated first volume. Silk meets Severian.\nGodzilla meets King Kong. Dracula meets the Wolfman. I don't like it and\nI\ndon't believe it. In short, Blue as Ushas is stronger thematically as it\nbrings both later series back to us. Of course, just because it makes me\nhappy doesn't make it true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember that David Hartwell apparently thought that the original four\nvolumes of the NS needed some sort of coda, which led Wolfe to write URTH. I\ndon't know, but I suspect, that Wolfe felt some obligation to tie the LS and\nSS series to NS. Wolfe corresponds with various members of this list, has\nanswered questions submitted by list members about the LS books, and was\nprobably aware before he wrote it that many of his most faithful readers\n*wanted* Sev to make an appearance in SS. I feel almost certain that the\nbusiness about Sev's \"sister\" in SS was a direct bow in this general\ndirection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The third (and last objection that I plan to deal with) is the biggest\nand the hardest to surmount. The Whorl left from Urth in the Age of the\nMonarch and the only way it could end up in the time of Ushas is for it to\ntravel faster than light." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think you need to resort to FTL travel. At near-but-sub-light\nspeeds, the _Whorl_ could have experienced 1/3 the subjective time-passage\nof the millenium that elapsed on Urth. Just have the ship travel in a big\ncircle.\n\nOr are you suggesting that the Blue of Horn's day was in the far future of\nthe Ushas that Sev saw? That a new civilization (Neighbors) had risen from\nthe mud of Urth-come-Ushas, that the new civilization had fallen to ruin,\nboth on Ushas and Lune, and abandoned both worlds for greener pastures\naround another star?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-16T06:06:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue as Ushas - long", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Roy! You wrote:\n\n\"Unless you are suggesting that Typhon launched the _Whorl_ for his own\nreasons that had nothing to do with a planned return to either Urth or\nUshas--that if it did return to the planet from which it was launched, it\ndid so by accident or third-party design--then I don't see how Blue can be\nUshas.\"\n\nBingo! That's precisely my argument. Typhon is the biggest jerk in the\nuniverse. I think that's the reason the Whorl leaves at the end of SS. Pas\nrealizes he's been had; that all he's done is taken one big walk around the\nblock. Heh heh heh.\n\nYou also say:\n\n\"Remember that David Hartwell apparently thought that the original four\nvolumes of the NS needed some sort of coda, which led Wolfe to write URTH. I\ndon't know, but I suspect, that Wolfe felt some obligation to tie the LS and\nSS series to NS. Wolfe corresponds with various members of this list, has\nanswered questions submitted by list members about the LS books, and was\nprobably aware before he wrote it that many of his most faithful readers\n*wanted* Sev to make an appearance in SS. I feel almost certain that the\nbusiness about Sev's \"sister\" in SS was a direct bow in this general\ndirection.\"\n\nI like to think that Wolfe wouldn't pander to the crowd (forgive the harsh\nphrasing but it seems the most apt) and as I said before I don't believe it,\nbut of course it's possible.\n\nand last:\n\n\"Or are you suggesting that the Blue of Horn's day was in the far future of\nthe Ushas that Sev saw? That a new civilization (Neighbors) had risen from\nthe mud of Urth-come-Ushas, that the new civilization had fallen to ruin,\nboth on Ushas and Lune, and abandoned both worlds for greener pastures\naround another star?\"\n\nBullseye once again. Though I'm honestly not sure where the Neighbors have\ngone.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2002-11-16T07:58:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue as Ushas - long", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And another lurker emerges from the shadows...\n\nGreets all, I have been reading the list for a month or four now. I'm very \nimpressed with the quality of discussion here, and the archives have helped \nme on numerous occasions so far. I finally signed up for the list to post \nsomething, but the topic you were on at the time has passed and there's no \nuse dragging that out. But now that I'm here I might as well post, eh?\n\nI've been following this argument, and while as far as the integrity of the \nworks are concerned I don't think Blue being (or not being) Ushas makes any \ndifference, nonetheless I think that the FTL angle is a red herring.\n\nIt stands to reason that the ship itself wasn't made for FTL travel, \notherwise it wouldn't have been made a generation ship. The ship could be \naccelerated to light speed by a miracle, of course, but generally speaking \nthe Outsider doesn't work that way. Yes, God does work in mysterious ways, \nbut there's a certain perversity involved in manifesting divine power to \nchange the course of a starship and violate the laws of physics, and yet \nworking so indirectly (through Silk) on affairs inside the starship. As far \nas the time stoppage, if this were a product of the ship's velocity then \neveryone would have experienced it, not just Silk - not to mention there are \nsome other effects of such phenomena that would have been rather disruptive \nto the Whorl.\n\nWell, hopefully this post hasn't been too lengthy or wasteful. For my own \nselfish reasons, I'll extend it one more paragraph though. I'm currently \nreading _Soldier of Arete_ for the first time, and have not read Herodotus, \nthough I would like to - I'm getting a copy this weekend, in fact, and I \nwondered if anyone here had a translation they would particularly recommend \nabove all others. Also related to _Soldier_, I was rather struck by the \nsimilarity between Latro's depression and the despair experienced by Silk \ntoward the end of LS, I was wondering if anyone had commented on that \nbefore. Not that I think the two are related, but I think they are so \nsimilar that it makes me suspect that the circumstances behind both may have \na lot in common.\n\nPeace,\nChris" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hi Roy! You wrote:\n\n\"Unless you are suggesting that Typhon launched the _Whorl_ for his own\nreasons that had nothing to do with a planned return to either Urth or\nUshas--that if it did return to the planet from which it was launched, it\ndid so by accident or third-party design--then I don't see how Blue can be\nUshas.\"\n\nBingo! That's precisely my argument. Typhon is the biggest jerk in the\nuniverse. I think that's the reason the Whorl leaves at the end of SS. \nPas\nrealizes he's been had; that all he's done is taken one big walk around the\nblock. Heh heh heh.\n\nYou also say:\n\n\"Remember that David Hartwell apparently thought that the original four\nvolumes of the NS needed some sort of coda, which led Wolfe to write URTH. \nI\ndon't know, but I suspect, that Wolfe felt some obligation to tie the LS \nand\nSS series to NS. Wolfe corresponds with various members of this list, has\nanswered questions submitted by list members about the LS books, and was\nprobably aware before he wrote it that many of his most faithful readers\n*wanted* Sev to make an appearance in SS. I feel almost certain that the\nbusiness about Sev's \"sister\" in SS was a direct bow in this general\ndirection.\"\n\nI like to think that Wolfe wouldn't pander to the crowd (forgive the harsh\nphrasing but it seems the most apt) and as I said before I don't believe \nit,\nbut of course it's possible.\n\nand last:\n\n\"Or are you suggesting that the Blue of Horn's day was in the far future of\nthe Ushas that Sev saw? That a new civilization (Neighbors) had risen from\nthe mud of Urth-come-Ushas, that the new civilization had fallen to ruin,\nboth on Ushas and Lune, and abandoned both worlds for greener pastures\naround another star?\"\n\nBullseye once again. Though I'm honestly not sure where the Neighbors have\ngone.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joe Cilluffo", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2002-11-16T14:33:56+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Blue as Ushas - long", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don wrote:\n\n<<\n\n\"Or are you suggesting that the Blue of Horn's day was in the far future\nof\nthe Ushas that Sev saw? That a new civilization (Neighbors) had risen\nfrom\nthe mud of Urth-come-Ushas, that the new civilization had fallen to\nruin,\nboth on Ushas and Lune, and abandoned both worlds for greener pastures\naround another star?\"\n\nBullseye once again. Though I'm honestly not sure where the Neighbors\nhave\ngone. >>\n\nHello, Don. \n\nI always thought that LS and SS took place chronologically in Severian's\npast -- when he was an apprentice and found/revived Triskele, met\nThecla, etc., all took place in the future relative to Typhon. He met\nTyphon in Urth of the New Sun in Severian's past, and thus the LS/SS\nseries cannot be Ushas because it only took about 250 years for the\nWhorl to reach Blue. I know that with GW time travel is always a\npossibility, but the Whorl, as has been commented, didn't seem to be\nconstructed for FTL travel. \n\nIt's an intriguing thought, though, this Blue as Ushas vein, and I have\nalways felt that Blue seemed like Ushas despite not understanding how it\ncould be so - the ruins of the Vanished People's world are the most\nobvious tie, and Green of course is reminiscent of Urth's green moon.\nBut there was one other textual hint that tantalized me. I am looking\nat p. 203 of the new Tor version. When Horn is trapped in the pit that\nKrait rescues him from, \"Once, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit,\nit seemed to me that a man with a long nose (a tall man or an immense\nspider) stood over me. I did not move or even open my eyes, knowing\nthat if I did he would be gone. He touched my forehead with something\nhe held, and the pit vanished.\" To me this sounds like Sev with the\nClaw -- the immense spider look is a result of his fuligin cloak, and he\ntypically went about reanimating people by placing the Claw on their\nforeheads. Horn proceeds to have an hallucination about Nettle cooking\nfor him, which is not unexpected -- all of the others Sev reanimates are\ndazed for some time thereafter but, because NS is written from Sev's\nperspective, we do not know if they are basically in a fog or whether\nthey hallucinate as Horn did. But to me this seemed like Severian\nbringing Horn back from the dead, which makes you think that perhaps\nBlue indeed is Ushas. \n\nI should say though that I have about thirty pages of Blue left and\nhaven't read Green or RTTW yet, although I have read NS and LS, so I\ncould be missing something or repeating the obvious, for which I\napologize! : )\n\n- Joe" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-16T21:00:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue as Ushas - long", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Joe wrote:\n\nBut there was one other textual hint that tantalized me. I am looking" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "at p. 203 of the new Tor version. When Horn is trapped in the pit that\nKrait rescues him from, \"Once, as I lay there at the bottom of the pit,\nit seemed to me that a man with a long nose (a tall man or an immense\nspider) stood over me. I did not move or even open my eyes, knowing\nthat if I did he would be gone. He touched my forehead with something\nhe held, and the pit vanished.\" To me this sounds like Sev with the\nClaw -- the immense spider look is a result of his fuligin cloak, and he\ntypically went about reanimating people by placing the Claw on their\nforeheads. Horn proceeds to have an hallucination about Nettle cooking\nfor him, which is not unexpected -- all of the others Sev reanimates are\ndazed for some time thereafter but, because NS is written from Sev's\nperspective, we do not know if they are basically in a fog or whether\nthey hallucinate as Horn did. But to me this seemed like Severian\nbringing Horn back from the dead, which makes you think that perhaps\nBlue indeed is Ushas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don enthusiastically replies:\n\nYes, yes, yes indeed! I have always felt that that was Severian with the\nclaw. I think Severian is also the creature who climbs in the boat during\nthe storm. Possibly the eldest Severian in his time line, one who has\nevolved with the rest of Ushas. There are others but I won't mention them\nas they are in the later books and you haven't read them. I think Wolfe\nsets up all of these obvious clues that Blue is Ushas and then periodically\ntries to kill them with things like Silk's claims of bilocation (he is wrong\nand that is obvious by the Grandmother's story set in Grandecitta) and his\nclaim that he will show Juganu the red star in Blue's sky (which he never\ndoes, because it's not there).\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-16T21:12:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue as Ushas - long", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Hi Chris. You wrote:\n\nAs far" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "as the time stoppage, if this were a product of the ship's velocity then\neveryone would have experienced it, not just Silk - not to mention there\nare\nsome other effects of such phenomena that would have been rather\ndisruptive\nto the Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would argue that Silk's awareness of the time stoppage is an anomalous\nresult\nof his being out of time, by way of his enlightenment. I think it more\nlikely that no one would notice a change in the velocity of a body the size\nof the Whorl. It is, after all, the size of a small planet. As for\ndisruptions, the Whorl is already quite disrupted before Silk's\nenlightenment, and it grows quickly worse as the narrative progresses. Of\ncourse, I know very little of ftl travel.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-11-17T09:11:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue as Ushas - long", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome, Chris" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It stands to reason that the ship itself wasn't made for FTL travel,\notherwise it wouldn't have been made a generation ship. The ship could be\naccelerated to light speed by a miracle, of course, but generally speaking\nthe Outsider doesn't work that way. Yes, God does work in mysterious ways,\nbut there's a certain perversity involved in manifesting divine power to\nchange the course of a starship and violate the laws of physics, and yet\nworking so indirectly (through Silk) on affairs inside the starship. As far\nas the time stoppage, if this were a product of the ship's velocity then\neveryone would have experienced it, not just Silk - not to mention there\nare\nsome other effects of such phenomena that would have been rather disruptive\nto the Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that FTL travel for the _Whorl_ is very doubtful. Anyway, the usual\ntake on FTL ships is that they travel *backwards* in time. Therefore the\narrival of the ship in Ushas' far future is even less likely.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-18T06:17:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue as Ushas - long", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Roy, you wrote:\nI agree that FTL travel for the _Whorl_ is very doubtful. Anyway, the\nusual\ntake on FTL ships is that they travel *backwards* in time. Therefore the\narrival of the ship in Ushas' far future is even less likely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please explain. Is this the usual SF take on FTL or is there a physics\nexplanation that makes backward time travel the most likely? I'm pretty\nignorant on this.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-11-18T18:02:15+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Blue as Ushas - long", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Scribble, scribble, scribble ... another great thick post,\neh Mr. Lackey?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The wounding of Urth's sun, whether directly by Typhon's \nactions or as retribution for them, had no galaxy-wide ripple \neffect. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This puzzles me. I have wondered for some time just why many\nof the participants on this list assume that the wounding of\nthe Old Sun took place during the reign of Typhon. In reading\nthe Typhon-era passages of UotNS, I received the distinct \nimpression that Typhon reigned under a wounded Old Sun. Can \nanyone give some specifics?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cilluff1 at optonline.net", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2002-11-18T18:58:27+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Blue as Ushas - long", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blattid wrote:\n>>\n\nThis is just from recollection, I don't have the book on hand, but I seem\nto recall that Typhon sent people off Urth on the spaceships because the\nsun was dying and meant to go himself but the rebels prevented him.\n\n- Joe" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-11-18T19:29:15+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Blue as Ushas - long", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Joe wrote:\nThis is just from recollection, I don't have the book on \nhand, but I seem to recall that Typhon sent people off Urth \non the spaceships because the sun was dying and meant to go \nhimself but the rebels prevented him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I recall that also ... but this does not automatically \nimply that the Old Sun has just started to die in his time.\nAs I said, I had the impression it had been going on rather\nlonger than that." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-11-18T19:51:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blue as Ushas - long", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See Typhon's discourse to Severian . .\n\nI don't have it to hand but it includes something along the lines of \"the\nscientists were wrong - solar radiation declined two parts in a thousand,\nthen stabilised . . . \"\n\nThe implication being not merely that the Sun had been wounded in Typhon's\ntime, but that he had had a part in it.\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nTo: \nSent: Monday, November 18, 2002 7:29 PM\nSubject: RE: (urth) Blue as Ushas - long" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Joe wrote:\nThis is just from recollection, I don't have the book on\nhand, but I seem to recall that Typhon sent people off Urth\non the spaceships because the sun was dying and meant to go\nhimself but the rebels prevented him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I recall that also ... but this does not automatically\nimply that the Old Sun has just started to die in his time.\nAs I said, I had the impression it had been going on rather\nlonger than that." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] } ] }