{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3570", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3570, "subject": "Silk's perception of time", "messages": 6, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-11-16T05:05:30+00:00", "last": "2002-11-19T17:44:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-16T05:05:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk's perception of time", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush says:\n\"Silk is not only \"aware\" that Time has stopped. He says he was *outside*\nTime. The speed in which Time is moving at the \"time\" of his enlightenment\nis irrelevant to him since such differences only matters from the\nperspective of persons *in* Time. So the Time stoppage for Silk doesn't tell\nus anything either way.\"\n\nDon smiles broadly and slaps Crush on the back:\nActually your objection only strengthens my theory and makes me certain that\nSilk's enlightenment is the point where the Whorl achieves and leaves ftl\nspeed. Allow me to explain. When we say God, or the Outsider (I'm assuming\nthat the consensus is that the Outsider is God), is outside of time what we\nare saying is that God exists in the past, present, and future\nsimultaneously and without differentiation. God isn't in the past, seeing\nthe future, or in the future, seeing the past. God is always NOW. So if\nSilk is outside of time, with the Outsider (or God) he is seeing the past,\npresent, and future as the Outsider sees them, while they are happening. Of\ncourse, he can only describe to Horn (or Nettle, or was it Marble?) what he\nsaw in terms of past present and future, but in his perception it was all\nnow. Outside of time means immersion in reality, without the barriers of\ntime. In essence, when Silk saw Patera Pike pray to the Outsider for help\nhe saw it as it happened (not as a vision of the past), and when he\nperceived that time had stopped in his present, time really had stopped." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-11-18T14:08:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Silk's perception of time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello all.\n\nI hate to rain on everyone's parade who seems to think that Silk's \nenlightenment occurred at the point where the Whorl dropped out of FTL \ntravel (if in fact the Whorl was capable of FTL travel, which I tend to \ndisbelieve), but I'm going to. \n\nAt the time Silk was enlightened, the whorl had been in orbit around the \n\"short sun\" for about thirty years, and therefore could not have been \ngoing faster than light at any time during Silk's life which, at the \nbeginning of NIGHTSIDE, was 23 years long.\n\nCharles" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don Doggett wrote:\nCrush says:\n\"Silk is not only \"aware\" that Time has stopped. He says he was *outside*\nTime. The speed in which Time is moving at the \"time\" of his enlightenment\nis irrelevant to him since such differences only matters from the\nperspective of persons *in* Time. So the Time stoppage for Silk doesn't tell\nus anything either way.\"\n\nDon smiles broadly and slaps Crush on the back:\nActually your objection only strengthens my theory and makes me certain that\nSilk's enlightenment is the point where the Whorl achieves and leaves ftl\nspeed. Allow me to explain. When we say God, or the Outsider (I'm assuming\nthat the consensus is that the Outsider is God), is outside of time what we\nare saying is that God exists in the past, present, and future\nsimultaneously and without differentiation. God isn't in the past, seeing\nthe future, or in the future, seeing the past. God is always NOW. So if\nSilk is outside of time, with the Outsider (or God) he is seeing the past,\npresent, and future as the Outsider sees them, while they are happening. Of\ncourse, he can only describe to Horn (or Nettle, or was it Marble?) what he\nsaw in terms of past present and future, but in his perception it was all\nnow. Outside of time means immersion in reality, without the barriers of\ntime. In essence, when Silk saw Patera Pike pray to the Outsider for help\nhe saw it as it happened (not as a vision of the past), and when he\nperceived that time had stopped in his present, time really had stopped." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-11-18T17:59:29+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Silk's perception of time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don Dogget, agent of SMERSH, emerged from an alley and dropped\nthe microfilm. When deciphered, it read:\n\n[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "what we are saying is that God exists in the past, present, \nand future simultaneously and without differentiation. God \nisn't in the past, seeing the future, or in the future, \nseeing the past. God is always NOW. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I think this slightly reverses the usual understanding\nof the relationship between God-in-Eternity and Time. I would\nnot say that God \"is always NOW\"; rather, I would say that God\nperceives past, present, and future as always-already \nsimultaneously present before God. To say that God is NOW almost \nseems to restrict God, to place God in the NOW, whereas I posit\nthat we want to say that no moment contains or can contain God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In essence, when Silk saw Patera Pike pray \nto the Outsider for help he saw it as it happened (not as a \nvision of the past), and when he perceived that time had \nstopped in his present, time really had stopped." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With this I completely concur -- God/the Outsider makes those\nmoments \"present\" to Silk which Silk \"needs\" to perceive." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-11-18T19:18:25+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Silk's perception of time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I greet the Rider of the Mouse!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDon Dogget wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[...]\nwhat we are saying is that God exists in the past, present,\nand future simultaneously and without differentiation. God\nisn't in the past, seeing the future, or in the future,\nseeing the past. God is always NOW." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, I think this slightly reverses the usual understanding\nof the relationship between God-in-Eternity and Time. I would\nnot say that God \"is always NOW\"; rather, I would say that God\nperceives past, present, and future as always-already\nsimultaneously present before God. To say that God is NOW almost\nseems to restrict God, to place God in the NOW, whereas I posit\nthat we want to say that no moment contains or can contain God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's one (somewhat simplified) way of looking at it:\n\nHuman people are creatures which exist in three dimensions. and are\nin involuntary motion in a fourth dimension. This motion is what we call\ntime. The plenum of parallel Worlds can be conceived as a plane\nperpendicular to this fourth dimension.\n\nAccording to this system, the angels (or small-g gods, however you\nprefer) exist in four dimensions, are free to move in two others, and are\nin involuntary motion in a seventh. The two dimensions that they are free\nto move in correspond to the dimensions of the time-plane mentioned above.\n\nMaybe (probably) there are levels beyond this.\n\nBig-G God is always NOW (as Dan'l puts it) to all of this. The angels\ndon't really know all that much more about it than human people do. The\nangel's angels (assuming there are such) don't know any more about it\neither and so on.\n\nAll of these conceptions are not-God. God is beyond conception.\n\nThis is, of course, all my own opinions based mostly on personal research.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-19T07:13:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Silk's perception of time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nTo: \nSent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:59 AM\nSubject: RE: (urth) Silk's perception of time\n\n\n\"Don Dogget, agent of SMERSH, emerged from an alley and dropped\nthe microfilm. When deciphered, it read:\"\n\nSMERSH? I'll bite, what is it? Do I wear a cool suit and glasses?\n\n\" Actually, I think this slightly reverses the usual understanding\nof the relationship between God-in-Eternity and Time. I would\nnot say that God \"is always NOW\"; rather, I would say that God\nperceives past, present, and future as always-already\nsimultaneously present before God. To say that God is NOW almost\nseems to restrict God, to place God in the NOW, whereas I posit\nthat we want to say that no moment contains or can contain God.\"\n\nThank you, that's what I meant but I was trying (unsuccessfully) for\neconomy.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-11-19T17:44:14+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Silk's perception of time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Don Dogget, agent of SMERSH, emerged from an alley and \ndropped the microfilm. When deciphered, it read:\"\n\nSMERSH? I'll bite, what is it? Do I wear a cool suit and glasses?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "SMERSH, short for \"Smyert shpionam\" [\"death to all spies\"] -- \nthe Soviet spy agency which stood in counterpart to the US's\nCIA, and against which James Bond fought in the original books\nand early movies. Yes, it was a real agency, unlike SPECTRE." } ] } ] }