# Silk's perception of time *The Urth list — 6 messages, 4 voices, 16 Nov 2002* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Don Doggett *16 Nov 2002, 05:05* Crush says: "Silk is not only "aware" that Time has stopped. He says he was *outside* Time. The speed in which Time is moving at the "time" of his enlightenment is irrelevant to him since such differences only matters from the perspective of persons *in* Time. So the Time stoppage for Silk doesn't tell us anything either way." Don smiles broadly and slaps Crush on the back: Actually your objection only strengthens my theory and makes me certain that Silk's enlightenment is the point where the Whorl achieves and leaves ftl speed. Allow me to explain. When we say God, or the Outsider (I'm assuming that the consensus is that the Outsider is God), is outside of time what we are saying is that God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously and without differentiation. God isn't in the past, seeing the future, or in the future, seeing the past. God is always NOW. So if Silk is outside of time, with the Outsider (or God) he is seeing the past, present, and future as the Outsider sees them, while they are happening. Of course, he can only describe to Horn (or Nettle, or was it Marble?) what he saw in terms of past present and future, but in his perception it was all now. Outside of time means immersion in reality, without the barriers of time. In essence, when Silk saw Patera Pike pray to the Outsider for help he saw it as it happened (not as a vision of the past), and when he perceived that time had stopped in his present, time really had stopped. --- ### Charles Reed *18 Nov 2002, 14:08 · follows Don Doggett* Hello all. I hate to rain on everyone's parade who seems to think that Silk's enlightenment occurred at the point where the Whorl dropped out of FTL travel (if in fact the Whorl was capable of FTL travel, which I tend to disbelieve), but I'm going to. At the time Silk was enlightened, the whorl had been in orbit around the "short sun" for about thirty years, and therefore could not have been going faster than light at any time during Silk's life which, at the beginning of NIGHTSIDE, was 23 years long. Charles > Don Doggett wrote: > Crush says: > "Silk is not only "aware" that Time has stopped. He says he was *outside* > Time. The speed in which Time is moving at the "time" of his enlightenment > is irrelevant to him since such differences only matters from the > perspective of persons *in* Time. So the Time stoppage for Silk doesn't tell > us anything either way." > > Don smiles broadly and slaps Crush on the back: > Actually your objection only strengthens my theory and makes me certain that > Silk's enlightenment is the point where the Whorl achieves and leaves ftl > speed. Allow me to explain. When we say God, or the Outsider (I'm assuming > that the consensus is that the Outsider is God), is outside of time what we > are saying is that God exists in the past, present, and future > simultaneously and without differentiation. God isn't in the past, seeing > the future, or in the future, seeing the past. God is always NOW. So if > Silk is outside of time, with the Outsider (or God) he is seeing the past, > present, and future as the Outsider sees them, while they are happening. Of > course, he can only describe to Horn (or Nettle, or was it Marble?) what he > saw in terms of past present and future, but in his perception it was all > now. Outside of time means immersion in reality, without the barriers of > time. In essence, when Silk saw Patera Pike pray to the Outsider for help > he saw it as it happened (not as a vision of the past), and when he > perceived that time had stopped in his present, time really had stopped. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *18 Nov 2002, 17:59 · follows Charles Reed* Don Dogget, agent of SMERSH, emerged from an alley and dropped the microfilm. When deciphered, it read: [...] > what we are saying is that God exists in the past, present, > and future simultaneously and without differentiation. God > isn't in the past, seeing the future, or in the future, > seeing the past. God is always NOW. Actually, I think this slightly reverses the usual understanding of the relationship between God-in-Eternity and Time. I would not say that God "is always NOW"; rather, I would say that God perceives past, present, and future as always-already simultaneously present before God. To say that God is NOW almost seems to restrict God, to place God in the NOW, whereas I posit that we want to say that no moment contains or can contain God. > In essence, when Silk saw Patera Pike pray > to the Outsider for help he saw it as it happened (not as a > vision of the past), and when he perceived that time had > stopped in his present, time really had stopped. With this I completely concur -- God/the Outsider makes those moments "present" to Silk which Silk "needs" to perceive. --- ### Josh Geller *18 Nov 2002, 19:18 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* I greet the Rider of the Mouse! > On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > Don Dogget wrote: >> [...] >> what we are saying is that God exists in the past, present, >> and future simultaneously and without differentiation. God >> isn't in the past, seeing the future, or in the future, >> seeing the past. God is always NOW. > Actually, I think this slightly reverses the usual understanding > of the relationship between God-in-Eternity and Time. I would > not say that God "is always NOW"; rather, I would say that God > perceives past, present, and future as always-already > simultaneously present before God. To say that God is NOW almost > seems to restrict God, to place God in the NOW, whereas I posit > that we want to say that no moment contains or can contain God. Here's one (somewhat simplified) way of looking at it: Human people are creatures which exist in three dimensions. and are in involuntary motion in a fourth dimension. This motion is what we call time. The plenum of parallel Worlds can be conceived as a plane perpendicular to this fourth dimension. According to this system, the angels (or small-g gods, however you prefer) exist in four dimensions, are free to move in two others, and are in involuntary motion in a seventh. The two dimensions that they are free to move in correspond to the dimensions of the time-plane mentioned above. Maybe (probably) there are levels beyond this. Big-G God is always NOW (as Dan'l puts it) to all of this. The angels don't really know all that much more about it than human people do. The angel's angels (assuming there are such) don't know any more about it either and so on. All of these conceptions are not-God. God is beyond conception. This is, of course, all my own opinions based mostly on personal research. . --- ### Don Doggett *19 Nov 2002, 07:13 · follows Josh Geller* ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" To: Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 9:59 AM Subject: RE: (urth) Silk's perception of time "Don Dogget, agent of SMERSH, emerged from an alley and dropped the microfilm. When deciphered, it read:" SMERSH? I'll bite, what is it? Do I wear a cool suit and glasses? " Actually, I think this slightly reverses the usual understanding of the relationship between God-in-Eternity and Time. I would not say that God "is always NOW"; rather, I would say that God perceives past, present, and future as always-already simultaneously present before God. To say that God is NOW almost seems to restrict God, to place God in the NOW, whereas I posit that we want to say that no moment contains or can contain God." Thank you, that's what I meant but I was trying (unsuccessfully) for economy. Don --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *19 Nov 2002, 17:44 · follows Don Doggett* > "Don Dogget, agent of SMERSH, emerged from an alley and > dropped the microfilm. When deciphered, it read:" > > SMERSH? I'll bite, what is it? Do I wear a cool suit and glasses? SMERSH, short for "Smyert shpionam" ["death to all spies"] -- the Soviet spy agency which stood in counterpart to the US's CIA, and against which James Bond fought in the original books and early movies. Yes, it was a real agency, unlike SPECTRE. ---