{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3573", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3573, "subject": "The leatherskin", "messages": 12, "voices": 6, "first": "2002-11-16T21:27:03+00:00", "last": "2003-01-10T20:28:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-16T21:27:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The leatherskin", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Howdy all,\n\nOne of (imho) Wolfe's first tricks in SS to give us the impression of Blue\nas an alien world is his introduction of the leatherskin, a terrible\ncreature with three (gasp!) jaws. It is the only really alien creature in\nthe book (even the neighbors are four limbed humanoids). Or is it? Here's\na more mundane (sort of) explanation: The leatherskin is a sort of evolved\nshark. Yes, a shark. Its three jaws are really three rows of teeth. To\nsomeone like Horn, or Silk, who has probably never had any previous\nexperience with salt water creatures, these rows could very well appear to\nbe three jaws. Sort of the way people with no experience with horseback\nriding might have seen the first horsemen as centaurs. Sharks also have\nextremely rough skin. Just a thought (a scary thought - a shark that can\nclimb into your boat. Ugh.)\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-11-18T15:43:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The leatherskin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello Don.\n\nI'd like to respond to your idea about the \"alien-ness\" the animals of \nthe Blue/Green system. You say that the leatherskin is \"the only really \nalien creature in the book,\" but I think you're mistaken. ALL the \nanimals we encounter on Blue are very and extremely alien to anything \nthat existed on the Whorl. It's just that settlers, where possible, \nhave given the alien animals names that reflect the only animal names \nthey know.\n\nFor example, there's a beast on blue that is rather large, lives in the \nforest, and has a very long snout. Instead of making up something new, \nthey start calling it an elephant, despite the fact that it has eight \nlegs. It's much easier to do that than try to create a new taxonomy. \n Every settler knows what a real elephant is, and this new creature of \nBlue is similar enough in appearance that when somebody says \"elephant\" \neverybody immediately knows what is being talked about. Similarly, \nthere's a creature that lives in the river that is at least vaguely \nreptilian, probably looks like a log floating in the water when still, \nand might eat you if you fall in, so instead of making up something new, \nthey call it a crocodile, even though these new crocodiles are obviously \nnot the same animal as the \"real\" crocodile whence their name derives \n(\"real\" crocodiles don't have eight legs). \n\nThat's not to say that some Blue animals don't get new names. Some \nanimals are so different that they're not reminiscent enough of a Whorl \nanimal to inherit a Whorl name. In those cases, the names given are \nvery utilitarian and descriptive in nature -- such as \"leatherskin.\"\n\nYou're also forgetting the inhumi, and the great variety of alien beings \non Green, which were pretty much mentioned only in passing. Still, some \nof their descriptions bear little resemblance to anything we ran into on \nthe Whorl.\n\nBlue is an alien world. The evolution of land-based life on Blue for \nsome reason favored octopedal locomotion rather than quadrupedal \nlocomotion, as was the case on Urth and subsequently in the Whorl. In \nfact, I can't think of a single animal we meet that is native to Blue \nthat does not have eight limbs, and that includes the departed Neighbors.\n\nWolfe is an extremely surprising writer, and is often subtle -- \nsometimes subtle to point of being frustrating -- but I really don't \nregard him as being \"tricky.\" I tend to take his (and his narrator's) \nexplanations at face value until there is a reason to do otherwise. \n Sometimes there is such a reason, but I don't think this is one of \nthose times.\n\nCharles" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don Doggett wrote:\nHowdy all,\n\nOne of (imho) Wolfe's first tricks in SS to give us the impression of Blue\nas an alien world is his introduction of the leatherskin, a terrible\ncreature with three (gasp!) jaws. It is the only really alien creature in\nthe book (even the neighbors are four limbed humanoids). Or is it? Here's\na more mundane (sort of) explanation: The leatherskin is a sort of evolved\nshark. Yes, a shark. Its three jaws are really three rows of teeth. To\nsomeone like Horn, or Silk, who has probably never had any previous\nexperience with salt water creatures, these rows could very well appear to\nbe three jaws. Sort of the way people with no experience with horseback\nriding might have seen the first horsemen as centaurs. Sharks also have\nextremely rough skin. Just a thought (a scary thought - a shark that can\nclimb into your boat. Ugh.)\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2002-11-18T20:04:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The leatherskin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:27 PM 11/16/2002 -0800, Don Doggett wrote:\nOne of (imho) Wolfe's first tricks in SS to give us the impression of Blue\nas an alien world is his introduction of the leatherskin, a terrible\ncreature with three (gasp!) jaws. It is the only really alien creature in\nthe book (even the neighbors are four limbed humanoids). Or is it? Here's\na more mundane (sort of) explanation: The leatherskin is a sort of evolved\nshark. Yes, a shark. Its three jaws are really three rows of teeth. To\nsomeone like Horn, or Silk, who has probably never had any previous\nexperience with salt water creatures, these rows could very well appear to\nbe three jaws. Sort of the way people with no experience with horseback\nriding might have seen the first horsemen as centaurs. Sharks also have\nextremely rough skin. Just a thought (a scary thought - a shark that can\nclimb into your boat. Ugh.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don,\n\nI don't agree that Horn mistook three rows of teeth for three jaws. Horn \nsays that the jaws clashed shut like \"the slamming of double doors.\" [p. 61 \nof the hardcover edition of OBW]. I don't see how this can be interpreted \nto mean anything other than two separate, hinged jaws closing against a \nthird fixed one.\n\nIn any case, a shark with at least *six* limbs [1] is as alien to Earthly \nevolution as one with three jaws, in my somewhat informed opinion (I was a \ngenetics major in a previous life)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n[1] Way back on October 18, 1999 I argued that the leatherskin has twelve \nlegs and no one has bothered arguing with my conclusions yet.\n\nWhat I said then:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------\nThe leatherskin, one of the largest I have ever seen, stood with six\nmassive legs and half its weight on the starboard gunwale, over which\nsilver water cascaded. [OBW (hc), p. 62]\n----------------\n\nIf this creature has only six legs and all of them are on the starboard\ngunwale (rather a tricky balancing act in the first place), then how can\nthe gunwale be only bearing half its weight?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-11-18T20:24:49+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The leatherskin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, since first reading that scene, I've always envisioned\nthe leatherskin as some kind of lobster ... possibly one with a\nslightly softer shell, possibly one that has molted recently;\nas for the three jaws, consider this from Thomas Huxley:\n\n \"... when I turn to the forepart of the body I see, at first, \n nothing but a great shield-like shell, called technically the \n 'carapace,' ending in front in a sharp spine, on either side \n of which are the curious compound eyes, set upon the ends of \n stout movable stalks. Behind these, on the under side of the \n body, are two pairs of long feelers, or antennae, followed by \n six pairs of jaws folded against one another over the mouth...\"\n\n_Six_ pairs of jaws!?! Okay, that's a bit of overkill... but\nperhaps Horn doesn't see them all..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-19T06:57:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The leatherskin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"William Ansley\" <" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[1] Way back on October 18, 1999 I argued that the leatherskin has twelve\nlegs and no one has bothered arguing with my conclusions yet.\n\nWhat I said then:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "----------------\nThe leatherskin, one of the largest I have ever seen, stood with six\nmassive legs and half its weight on the starboard gunwale, over which\nsilver water cascaded. [OBW (hc), p. 62]\n----------------\n\nIf this creature has only six legs and all of them are on the starboard\ngunwale (rather a tricky balancing act in the first place), then how can\nthe gunwale be only bearing half its weight?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Then Blattid says:\n\"Actually, since first reading that scene, I've always envisioned\nthe leatherskin as some kind of lobster ... possibly one with a\nslightly softer shell, possibly one that has molted recently;\"\n\nSounds good to me. Lobster anyone? There's plenty for everybody." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-01-09T17:06:10+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The leatherskin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley heroically proffers:\nWay back on October 18, 1999 I argued that the leatherskin has twelve legs\nand no one has bothered arguing with my conclusions yet. What I said then:\n----------------\nThe leatherskin, one of the largest I have ever seen, stood with six massive\nlegs and half its weight on the starboard gunwale, over which silver water\ncascaded. [OBW (hc), p. 62]\n----------------\nIf this creature has only six legs and all of them are on the starboard\ngunwale (rather a tricky balancing act in the first place), then how can the\ngunwale be only bearing half its weight?\n\n\nCrush blunders forward:\nOk. I think I have an understanding of what a leatherskin looks like.\n\nThe leatherskin is giant dugong with six pectoral flippers and a manticore's\njaws.\n\nThe reason \"half its weight\" was on the starboard gunwale was because its\nmassive tail-end was dangling in the water.\n\nSee the following link for my full explanation:\nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/leatherskin.htm\n\n\n--- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2003-01-10T04:08:21+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The leatherskin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:06 AM -0600 1/9/03, James Wynn wrote:\nWilliam Ansley heroically proffers:\nWay back on October 18, 1999 I argued that the leatherskin has twelve legs\nand no one has bothered arguing with my conclusions yet. What I said then:\n----------------\nThe leatherskin, one of the largest I have ever seen, stood with six massive\nlegs and half its weight on the starboard gunwale, over which silver water\ncascaded. [OBW (hc), p. 62]\n----------------\nIf this creature has only six legs and all of them are on the starboard\ngunwale (rather a tricky balancing act in the first place), then how can the\ngunwale be only bearing half its weight?\n\n\nCrush blunders forward:\nOk. I think I have an understanding of what a leatherskin looks like.\n\nThe leatherskin is giant dugong with six pectoral flippers and a manticore's\njaws.\n\nThe reason \"half its weight\" was on the starboard gunwale was because its\nmassive tail-end was dangling in the water." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh happy day! Finally, someone is arguing with my conclusions!\n\nIf I am to buy your argument, I have to believe that Horn doesn't \nknow the difference between flippers and legs. Maybe he doesn't. \nMaybe he has never seen any creature with fins or flippers on the \nWhorl, so he calls all such appendages \"legs.\" But, until you can \nshow me a quote where Horn or some other former Whorl denizen talks \nabout fish legs, I will remain doubtful." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cilluff1 at optonline.net", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2003-01-10T14:39:53+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The leatherskin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "W. Ansley wrote, in response to Crush's leatherskin vision:\n\n<<>Crush blunders forward:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ok. I think I have an understanding of what a leatherskin looks like.\n\nThe leatherskin is giant dugong with six pectoral flippers and a\nmanticore's\njaws.\n\nThe reason \"half its weight\" was on the starboard gunwale was because its\nmassive tail-end was dangling in the water." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh happy day! Finally, someone is arguing with my conclusions!\n\nIf I am to buy your argument, I have to believe that Horn doesn't \nknow the difference between flippers and legs. Maybe he doesn't. \nMaybe he has never seen any creature with fins or flippers on the \nWhorl, so he calls all such appendages \"legs.\" But, until you can \nshow me a quote where Horn or some other former Whorl denizen talks \nabout fish legs, I will remain doubtful.\n-- >>\n\nI always pictured the leatherskin as more of a gigantic, mulitegged\naligator or similar creature (mostly because, as W.A. noted, the creature\nhad \"legs,\" not \"fins,\" but also because of its name, \"leatherskin,\"\nreminded me of aligator skin leather products like cheesy cowboy boots).\n\nAs for how many legs, the quote is susceptible to both the six or twelve\n(indeed, or more) legged interpretation:\n\n\"The leatherskin, one of the largest I have ever seen, stood with six\nmassive " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "legs and half its weight on the starboard gunwale....\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tend to think the leatherskin had more than six legs, simply because I\nthink Horn would have said something more along the lines of \"all six of\nits massive legs\" or such if six were the creature's total. Of course, the\nquote is not exactly definitive, especially because it is not really Horn\nbut Gene Wolfe talking, and Horn's description really is just GW's choice\nof words for us to know that the creature is multilegged beyond what we on\nEarth, rather than Urth, would think normal.\n\nMy feeling that there are more than six legs also goes back to my\naligatoresque vision of it, if half the creature's weight were on the sloop\nthen it probably had other legs still in the water -- an aligator's four\nlegs are roughly evenly divided between front and back of the torso, with\nits tail accounting for not much of the creature's weight relative to the\nrest. Similarly, in my vision the leatherskin with half its body on the\nsloop would have legs still in the water. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2003-01-10T16:42:24+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The leatherskin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Way back on October 18, 1999 I argued that the leatherskin \nhas twelve legs and no one has bothered arguing with my\nconclusions yet. What I said then:\n----------------\nThe leatherskin, one of the largest I have ever seen, stood \nwith six massive legs and half its weight on the starboard \ngunwale, over which silver water cascaded. [OBW (hc), p. 62]\n----------------" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I didn't exactly argue with your conclusion, but I'm\npretty sure I came back with the suggestion that the \nleatherskin is some kind of crustacean -- my first thought\nwas a lobster, but on more mature thought I suspect it of\nbeing something like a softshell crab. Except, of course,\nmuch bigger. And with twice as many limbs." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-01-10T17:29:40+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The leatherskin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "BTW It occurred to me last night that manticores have **horns** with\n**stingers**. Wolfe's leatherneck \"had\" a Horn with a deadly sting as well\n... a harpoon.\n\n-----Original Message-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:ddanehy at siebel.com]\nSent: Friday, January 10, 2003 10:42 AM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: RE: (urth) The leatherskin\nWay back on October 18, 1999 I argued that the leatherskin\nhas twelve legs and no one has bothered arguing with my\nconclusions yet. What I said then:\n----------------\nThe leatherskin, one of the largest I have ever seen, stood\nwith six massive legs and half its weight on the starboard\ngunwale, over which silver water cascaded. [OBW (hc), p. 62]\n----------------" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I didn't exactly argue with your conclusion, but I'm\npretty sure I came back with the suggestion that the\nleatherskin is some kind of crustacean -- my first thought\nwas a lobster, but on more mature thought I suspect it of\nbeing something like a softshell crab. Except, of course,\nmuch bigger. And with twice as many limbs." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-01-10T15:54:17+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The leatherskin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley responded to Crush:\nOh happy day! Finally, someone is arguing with my conclusions!\n\nIf I am to buy your argument, I have to believe that Horn doesn't\nknow the difference between flippers and legs. Maybe he doesn't.\nMaybe he has never seen any creature with fins or flippers on the\nWhorl, so he calls all such appendages \"legs.\" But, until you can\nshow me a quote where Horn or some other former Whorl denizen talks\nabout fish legs, I will remain doubtful.\n\nCrush takes another whack at it:\nHmmm, I wouldn't want you to remain in doubt, so I'll make a feeble attempt\nto calm your disquiet.\n\nMy first inclination was to say, \"William, William, you're troubling\nyourself over nothing. Flippers **are** legs for an aquatic mammal.\"\n\nBut then I remembered that Pausanias' \"Description of Greece\" is the\ninspiration for the leatherskin (I'm quite certain of this). Pausanias said\nthe triton has \"hands, fingers, and nails like the shells of the murex.\" So\nit is reasonable to assume the leatherskin would too.\n\nSo I must amend my description, The leatherskin does not have flippers. It\nhas clawed \"hands.\" Considering the leatherskin's apparent clumsiness in\ngetting on the boat, I'm guessing it did not have \"arms\". The point is that\nit did NOT have true flippers.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2003-01-10T20:28:06+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The leatherskin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One thing I've reconsidered:\nThe morphology of the \"legs\" seems to differ from the dugong's flippers in\nthat the foremost claws (at least) are attached to jointed \"arms\" that\npermit them to be extended in front of the animal to some degree. This is\nclear because Horn's first view of the creature was its claws \"scrabbling\"\nfor the gunwale with the head not in site.\n\"Looking behind me, I saw great, coarse claws, each as thick as the handle\nof our ax, scrabbling for a hold on the port gunwale and rowling its wood\nlike so many gouges. A moment later the head appeared and shot toward me.\"\nOn Blues Waters, chapter 2\nBut it did not use its claws to impel itself at Horn because (I would guess)\nif its claws had such strength, it would not have had so much trouble\ngetting on the boat. \"The head shot toward\" Horn because the leatherskin was\nimpelled itself with its tail.\n\nI don't think this undermines Pausanias as the original inspiration.\n\n--Crush\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Wynn [mailto:crushtv at HotPOP.com]\nSent: Friday, January 10, 2003 11:30 AM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: RE: (urth) The leatherskin\n\nBTW It occurred to me last night that manticores have **horns** with\n**stingers**. Wolfe's leatherskin \"had\" a Horn with a deadly sting as well\n... a harpoon.\n\n-----Original Message-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:ddanehy at siebel.com]\nSent: Friday, January 10, 2003 10:42 AM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: RE: (urth) The leatherskin\nWay back on October 18, 1999 I argued that the leatherskin\nhas twelve legs and no one has bothered arguing with my\nconclusions yet. What I said then:\n----------------\nThe leatherskin, one of the largest I have ever seen, stood\nwith six massive legs and half its weight on the starboard\ngunwale, over which silver water cascaded. [OBW (hc), p. 62]\n----------------" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I didn't exactly argue with your conclusion, but I'm\npretty sure I came back with the suggestion that the\nleatherskin is some kind of crustacean -- my first thought\nwas a lobster, but on more mature thought I suspect it of\nbeing something like a softshell crab. Except, of course,\nmuch bigger. And with twice as many limbs." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "--\n\n\n\n\n-- " } ] } ] }