{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3578", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3578, "subject": "horn + horn, sev + sev", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-11-17T21:51:50+00:00", "last": "2002-11-19T23:57:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2002-11-17T21:51:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) horn + horn, sev + sev", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, several readers believed that the tall creature in the pit may have been \nSeverian on their first reading of OBW way back before 2000. Then, the spider \nreference made it clear that this was a vanished person, and not Sev (four \narms and four legs). However, if we accept that Severian can become a \nvanished person, then this response is not absurd.\n \nThis is not the first time this has been done by Wolfe - when Severian is \nstruck by the Avern leaf, you think that his own power somehow resurrects him \n- then looking back you think it's the claw, then looking back again you think \nit really is a part of Severian's power bestowed upon him by his association \nwith the New Sun because the Claw is just like any other thorn, then looking \nback again you realize maybe the hierodules are messing with time and the \nthorn has Severian's DNA on it, etc. etc.\n\nIn any case, I had tried to reconcile the appearance of the neighbor Horn with \nHorn's resurrection, and I had thought that VP Horn was the one in the pit \nhealing bald, human Horn - that VP Horn had been born of the union between the \nblood of Horn and the transgenic recombination inherent in the vegetable \nisland of the pit. \nI had thought that perhaps Horn hadn't died, but had somehow survived the \ntransformation into a neighbor, thus splitting in two - four armed and legged \nHorn and normal bald Horn. I was wrong - he died. But the VP version of \nSeverian may have brought him back to life - but not by any stretch the human \nSeverian, who may have died a long time ago, or may still exist in two armed, \ntwo legged, gimpy form as the stiff-legged dude on Green. I posit that the \nmechanism through which Neighbors are born involves the death of the donor - \nHorn should have died to give birth to the hybrid VP Horn. Severian should \nhave died to give birth to the hybrid VP Severian. However, both of them can \ncheat death through Severian's auto-resurrection. Later, the Neighbor on \nGreen cannot resurrect Horn, they can only send him into Silk. This indicates \nthat the ability to revive is limited to that special Vanished Person in the \nPit. The blue glass all over the island does seem to resemble the blue glass \nthat surrounds the Claw of the Conciliator. Perhaps the replicating factor of \nthe island has attempted to replicate the miraculous restorative powers of the \nclaw by spitting out copies, but failed. Perhaps the power of the claw - \nwhich is really the negation of time - indicates where the vanished people \nhave gone - someWHEN else. And perhaps the claw is in the tree. Wait a \nminute - the claw is from a bush, eh? Mixed with Severian's blood, it does \nseem to have some small restorative powers. And remember that the green man \nhas access to the corridors of time. But are there two Sevs, or one? Is \nthere one left who has two arms and legs? \nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-18T07:07:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) horn + horn, sev + sev", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Marc writes:\n\nHowever, if we accept that Severian can become a" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "vanished person, then this response is not absurd." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it only stands to reason that Severian would become a vanished\nperson if Blue is Ushas. Remember in Apu Punchau's tomb when the Hierodules\nexplain to Severian that even though he was an eidolon, as he took in the\nfood and water and air of his environment it would be incorporated into his\nbody and make it real? Severian would most certainly evolve with his\nsurroundings and whatever created the polyploidy in all the other creatures\nwould affect him as well. The other Severian's are perhaps visitors from\nthe corridors of time.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Joshua A. Solomon", "address": "j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk" }, "date": "2002-11-18T10:16:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) horn + horn, sev + sev", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: maa32 \nDate: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:51:50 -0700\n\nwhen Severian is \nstruck by the Avern leaf, you think that his own power somehow resurrects him\n- then looking back you think it's the claw, then looking back again you think\nit really is a part of Severian's power bestowed upon him by his association\nwith the New Sun because the Claw is just like any other thorn, then looking\nback again you realize maybe the hierodules are messing with time and the\nthorn has Severian's DNA on it, etc. etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc, I cannot buy into most of your theories, but this synopsis is dead on\ntarget. Except the bit about Sev's DNA. What am I forgetting?\n\nbee" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-11-18T11:34:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) horn + horn, sev + sev", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 18/11/2002 10:16:31 Joshua A. Solomon wrote:\nFrom: maa32 \nDate: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:51:50 -0700\n\nwhen Severian is\nstruck by the Avern leaf, you think that his own power somehow\nresurrects him" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm... When on first reads SotT I don't think the reader can at that\npoint have enough clues to endow either Severian or the Claw with such\npower.\n\nSev himself thinks that perhaps Agia lied about the lethal nature of the\nleaves and we do have enough knowledge of Agia at that point to find that\nexplanation credible.\n\nLater when Severian is lead to believe in the power of the Claw or later\nstill when it becomes apparent that the power is that of the white\nfountain which will bring the new sun it's reasonable to reasses the\nmatter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- then looking back you think it's the claw, then looking back again\nyou think\nit really is a part of Severian's power bestowed upon him by his\nassociation\nwith the New Sun because the Claw is just like any other thorn, then\nlooking\nback again you realize maybe the hierodules are messing with time and\nthe\nthorn has Severian's DNA on it, etc. etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc, I cannot buy into most of your theories, but this synopsis is dead\non\ntarget. Except the bit about Sev's DNA. What am I forgetting?\n\nbee\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-11-19T23:57:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) horn + horn, sev + sev", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Don Doggett wrote:\n Marc writes:\n\nHowever, if we accept that Severian can become a\nvanished person, then this response is not absurd.\n\nI think it only stands to reason that Severian would become a vanished\nperson if Blue is Ushas. Remember in Apu Punchau's tomb when the\nHierodules\nexplain to Severian that even though he was an eidolon, as he took in\nthe\nfood and water and air of his environment it would be incorporated into\nhis\nbody and make it real? Severian would most certainly evolve with his\nsurroundings and whatever created the polyploidy in all the other\ncreatures\nwould affect him as well. The other Severian's are perhaps visitors\nfrom\nthe corridors of time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just thought I'd mention that polyploidy is a red herring. It means\nhaving a multiple (by an integer greater than 1) of the usual number\nof chromosomes. It has nothing to do with the number of limbs in\nanimals. Hypothetical plant-animal hybrids might have a full set of\nchromosomes from each parent, I guess, but I don't think that would be\ncalled polyploidy.\n\nI'm not refuting claims that Blue is Ushas, felwolves are descended\nfrom wolves (or wolfs), and the like (though those claims seem very\nunlikely to me--in contrast to the claim that something is very weird,\npossibly sentient, about the trees). I'm just saying that \"polyploidy\"\nisn't the word you want. For those who believe that the Bluvian\nanimals were produced by doubling limbs, eyes, and whatever of Urth\nanimals, can some Greek scholar come up with the word? Dimerization?\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }