Subject: (urth) horn + horn, sev + sev

From: maa32 <maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 21:51:50 +0000

Well, several readers believed that the tall creature in the pit may have been 
Severian on their first reading of OBW way back before 2000.  Then, the spider 
reference made it clear that this was a vanished person, and not Sev (four 
arms and four legs).  However, if we accept that Severian can become a 
vanished person, then this response is not absurd.
  
This is not the first time this has been done by Wolfe - when Severian is 
struck by the Avern leaf, you think that his own power somehow resurrects him 
- then looking back you think it's the claw, then looking back again you think 
it really is a part of Severian's power bestowed upon him by his association 
with the New Sun because the Claw is just like any other thorn, then looking 
back again you realize maybe the hierodules are messing with time and the 
thorn has Severian's DNA on it, etc. etc.

In any case, I had tried to reconcile the appearance of the neighbor Horn with 
Horn's resurrection, and I had thought that VP Horn was the one in the pit 
healing bald, human Horn - that VP Horn had been born of the union between the 
blood of Horn and the transgenic recombination inherent in the vegetable 
island of the pit.  
I had thought that perhaps Horn hadn't died, but had somehow survived the 
transformation into a neighbor, thus splitting in two - four armed and legged 
Horn and normal bald Horn.  I was wrong - he died.  But the VP version of 
Severian may have brought him back to life - but not by any stretch the human 
Severian, who may have died a long time ago, or may still exist in two armed, 
two legged, gimpy form as the stiff-legged dude on Green.  I posit that the 
mechanism through which Neighbors are born involves the death of the donor - 
Horn should have died to give birth to the hybrid VP Horn.  Severian should 
have died to give birth to the hybrid VP Severian.  However, both of them can 
cheat death through Severian's auto-resurrection.  Later, the Neighbor on 
Green cannot resurrect Horn, they can only send him into Silk.  This indicates 
that the ability to revive is limited to that special Vanished Person in the 
Pit.  The blue glass all over the island does seem to resemble the blue glass 
that surrounds the Claw of the Conciliator.  Perhaps the replicating factor of 
the island has attempted to replicate the miraculous restorative powers of the 
claw by spitting out copies, but failed.  Perhaps the power of the claw - 
which is really the negation of time - indicates where the vanished people 
have gone - someWHEN else.  And perhaps the claw is in the tree.  Wait a 
minute - the claw is from a bush, eh?  Mixed with Severian's blood, it does 
seem to have some small restorative powers.  And remember that the green man 
has access to the corridors of time.  But are there two Sevs, or one?  Is 
there one left who has two arms and legs?  
Marc Aramini

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From: Don Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 07:07:14 +0000

However, if we accept that Severian can become a
> vanished person, then this response is not absurd.

I think it only stands to reason that Severian would become a vanished
person if Blue is Ushas.  Remember in Apu Punchau's tomb when the Hierodules
explain to Severian that even though he was an eidolon, as he took in the
food and water and air of his environment it would be incorporated into his
body and make it real?  Severian would most certainly evolve with his
surroundings and whatever created the polyploidy in all the other creatures
would affect him as well.  The other Severian's are perhaps visitors from
the corridors of time.

Don

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From: Joshua A. Solomon <j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:16:31 +0000

> From: maa32 <maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu>
> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:51:50 -0700
>
> when Severian is 

Marc, I cannot buy into most of your theories, but this synopsis is dead on
target. Except the bit about Sev's DNA. What am I forgetting?

bee

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From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:34:51 +0000

>> struck by the Avern leaf, you think that his own power somehow
resurrects him

Ummm...  When on first reads SotT I don't think the reader can at that
point have enough clues to endow either Severian or the Claw with such
power.

Sev himself thinks that perhaps Agia lied about the lethal nature of the
leaves and we do have enough knowledge of Agia at that point to find that
explanation credible.

Later when Severian is lead to believe in the power of the Claw or later
still when it becomes apparent that the power is that of the white
fountain which will bring the new sun it's reasonable to reasses the
matter.

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:57:08 +0000

--- Don Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net> wrote:
>  Marc writes:

Just thought I'd mention that polyploidy is a red herring.  It means
having a multiple (by an integer greater than 1) of the usual number
of chromosomes.  It has nothing to do with the number of limbs in
animals.  Hypothetical plant-animal hybrids might have a full set of
chromosomes from each parent, I guess, but I don't think that would be
called polyploidy.

I'm not refuting claims that Blue is Ushas, felwolves are descended
from wolves (or wolfs), and the like (though those claims seem very
unlikely to me--in contrast to the claim that something is very weird,
possibly sentient, about the trees).  I'm just saying that "polyploidy"
isn't the word you want.  For those who believe that the Bluvian
animals were produced by doubling limbs, eyes, and whatever of Urth
animals, can some Greek scholar come up with the word?  Dimerization?

Jerry Friedman

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