# horn + horn, sev + sev *The Urth list — 5 messages, 5 voices, 17 Nov 2002* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### maa32 *17 Nov 2002, 21:51* Well, several readers believed that the tall creature in the pit may have been Severian on their first reading of OBW way back before 2000. Then, the spider reference made it clear that this was a vanished person, and not Sev (four arms and four legs). However, if we accept that Severian can become a vanished person, then this response is not absurd. This is not the first time this has been done by Wolfe - when Severian is struck by the Avern leaf, you think that his own power somehow resurrects him - then looking back you think it's the claw, then looking back again you think it really is a part of Severian's power bestowed upon him by his association with the New Sun because the Claw is just like any other thorn, then looking back again you realize maybe the hierodules are messing with time and the thorn has Severian's DNA on it, etc. etc. In any case, I had tried to reconcile the appearance of the neighbor Horn with Horn's resurrection, and I had thought that VP Horn was the one in the pit healing bald, human Horn - that VP Horn had been born of the union between the blood of Horn and the transgenic recombination inherent in the vegetable island of the pit. I had thought that perhaps Horn hadn't died, but had somehow survived the transformation into a neighbor, thus splitting in two - four armed and legged Horn and normal bald Horn. I was wrong - he died. But the VP version of Severian may have brought him back to life - but not by any stretch the human Severian, who may have died a long time ago, or may still exist in two armed, two legged, gimpy form as the stiff-legged dude on Green. I posit that the mechanism through which Neighbors are born involves the death of the donor - Horn should have died to give birth to the hybrid VP Horn. Severian should have died to give birth to the hybrid VP Severian. However, both of them can cheat death through Severian's auto-resurrection. Later, the Neighbor on Green cannot resurrect Horn, they can only send him into Silk. This indicates that the ability to revive is limited to that special Vanished Person in the Pit. The blue glass all over the island does seem to resemble the blue glass that surrounds the Claw of the Conciliator. Perhaps the replicating factor of the island has attempted to replicate the miraculous restorative powers of the claw by spitting out copies, but failed. Perhaps the power of the claw - which is really the negation of time - indicates where the vanished people have gone - someWHEN else. And perhaps the claw is in the tree. Wait a minute - the claw is from a bush, eh? Mixed with Severian's blood, it does seem to have some small restorative powers. And remember that the green man has access to the corridors of time. But are there two Sevs, or one? Is there one left who has two arms and legs? Marc Aramini --- ### Don Doggett *18 Nov 2002, 07:07 · follows maa32* Marc writes: However, if we accept that Severian can become a > vanished person, then this response is not absurd. I think it only stands to reason that Severian would become a vanished person if Blue is Ushas. Remember in Apu Punchau's tomb when the Hierodules explain to Severian that even though he was an eidolon, as he took in the food and water and air of his environment it would be incorporated into his body and make it real? Severian would most certainly evolve with his surroundings and whatever created the polyploidy in all the other creatures would affect him as well. The other Severian's are perhaps visitors from the corridors of time. Don --- ### Joshua A. Solomon *18 Nov 2002, 10:16 · follows Don Doggett* > From: maa32 > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:51:50 -0700 > > when Severian is > struck by the Avern leaf, you think that his own power somehow resurrects him > - then looking back you think it's the claw, then looking back again you think > it really is a part of Severian's power bestowed upon him by his association > with the New Sun because the Claw is just like any other thorn, then looking > back again you realize maybe the hierodules are messing with time and the > thorn has Severian's DNA on it, etc. etc. Marc, I cannot buy into most of your theories, but this synopsis is dead on target. Except the bit about Sev's DNA. What am I forgetting? bee --- ### matthew.malthouse *18 Nov 2002, 11:34 · follows Joshua A. Solomon* >> On 18/11/2002 10:16:31 Joshua A. Solomon wrote: >> From: maa32 >> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:51:50 -0700 >> >> when Severian is >> struck by the Avern leaf, you think that his own power somehow >> resurrects him Ummm... When on first reads SotT I don't think the reader can at that point have enough clues to endow either Severian or the Claw with such power. Sev himself thinks that perhaps Agia lied about the lethal nature of the leaves and we do have enough knowledge of Agia at that point to find that explanation credible. Later when Severian is lead to believe in the power of the Claw or later still when it becomes apparent that the power is that of the white fountain which will bring the new sun it's reasonable to reasses the matter. >> - then looking back you think it's the claw, then looking back again >> you think >> it really is a part of Severian's power bestowed upon him by his >> association >> with the New Sun because the Claw is just like any other thorn, then >> looking >> back again you realize maybe the hierodules are messing with time and >> the >> thorn has Severian's DNA on it, etc. etc. > Marc, I cannot buy into most of your theories, but this synopsis is dead > on > target. Except the bit about Sev's DNA. What am I forgetting? > > bee > > > -- --- ### Jerry Friedman *19 Nov 2002, 23:57 · follows matthew.malthouse* > --- Don Doggett wrote: > Marc writes: > > However, if we accept that Severian can become a > vanished person, then this response is not absurd. > > I think it only stands to reason that Severian would become a vanished > person if Blue is Ushas. Remember in Apu Punchau's tomb when the > Hierodules > explain to Severian that even though he was an eidolon, as he took in > the > food and water and air of his environment it would be incorporated into > his > body and make it real? Severian would most certainly evolve with his > surroundings and whatever created the polyploidy in all the other > creatures > would affect him as well. The other Severian's are perhaps visitors > from > the corridors of time. Just thought I'd mention that polyploidy is a red herring. It means having a multiple (by an integer greater than 1) of the usual number of chromosomes. It has nothing to do with the number of limbs in animals. Hypothetical plant-animal hybrids might have a full set of chromosomes from each parent, I guess, but I don't think that would be called polyploidy. I'm not refuting claims that Blue is Ushas, felwolves are descended from wolves (or wolfs), and the like (though those claims seem very unlikely to me--in contrast to the claim that something is very weird, possibly sentient, about the trees). I'm just saying that "polyploidy" isn't the word you want. For those who believe that the Bluvian animals were produced by doubling limbs, eyes, and whatever of Urth animals, can some Greek scholar come up with the word? Dimerization? Jerry Friedman ---