{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3590", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3590, "subject": "Quetzal in orbit", "messages": 10, "voices": 7, "first": "2002-11-19T06:24:51+00:00", "last": "2002-11-20T00:14:31+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-11-19T06:24:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Quetzal in orbit", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Charles Reed wrote:\nAt the time Silk was enlightened, the whorl had been in orbit around the\n\"short sun\" for about thirty years, and therefore could not have been\ngoing faster than light at any time during Silk's life which, at the\nbeginning of NIGHTSIDE, was 23 years long." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good point. I, too, recall that the ship had been in orbit for several\ndecades, but can't remember where in the text that information is found. In\nany event, we are given that Quetzal had been Prolocutor for 33 years. This\nraises two questions I don't recall having been addressed.\n\n1) How could an inhumi have attained that position? From comments Quetzal\nmade to Gulo, it seems that high positions in the Chapter were more a matter\nof politics than merit. It's hard to imagine an inhumi rising through the\nranks as an ordinary augur. Six years in the schola for augurs would present\ntoo many opportunities for discovery (athletics, showers, dormitories). It's\neasier to imagine an inhumu assuming the human guise of an older man,\nperhaps even the identity of the heir apparent to the position, on the eve\nof his replacement. The convenient death of the sitting Prolocutor would\npresent no difficulty for an inhumi. After that, the inhumu could use the\npower of his office to limit access by the public, minimizing chances of\nexposure. The second question follows close on the first.\n\n2) Who was Quetzal's mama? That is, where and how did an inhuma get the\nhuman blood needed to pass human intelligence to her offspring? From\ninformation in the SS books, it seems that the mother would have to have\nspawned her offspring on Green. Did she get the blood from a human on Green\nor a human on the _Whorl_? If the former, who was he and what was he doing\nthere? If the latter, how did she get aboard, then go back to Green, then\nget her child back to the ship? An inhumi can't just fly through the hull of\nthe ship like the atmosphere of Blue.\n\nScylla-in-Chenille told Auk that Pas was dead, had been wiped \"out of core\nthirty years ago\" (LS2; ch. 11). If true, this means that Quetzal was on the\nship *at least* three years before Pas' demise in Mainframe. Given that\nMainframe was the hub of intelligence on the ship, and that Pas was the\nruling entity there, it's hard to believe that a lander could have either\nlaunched from or returned to the ship without his knowledge. Even if Pas had\nsomehow been kept in the dark, Mainframe itself should have been aware of\nthe comings and goings of landers. That seems to be what the Plan of Pas was\nall about. *Someone* in Mainframe had to know what was going on. Who? Why\nwas there no announcement to the cities that the voyage was over? Why, for\nthirty years after Pas was dead, did the ship stay idly in orbit? Was the\nfamilial rebellion related to, as either cause or effect, the _Whorl's_\ninactivity?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris", "address": "rasputin_ at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2002-11-19T06:46:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal in orbit", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't recall it (the Whorl being in orbit for 30+ years) being mentioned \nexplicitly in the text at all, but I could be mistaken. However, I think \nWolfe came out and said it in an interview/Q&A, if that counts. And of \ncourse it can be inferred from other things, like Quetzal's presence.\n\nYour answer to question 1 seems eminently sensible to me; question 2 is \ntough, but I can think of a couple of things to at least suggest. One \npossibility is that he got into the ship through the cooling system. It's \nmentioned in one passage that many of the tunnels have gone dry that are \nsupposed to have been carrying water/coolant, which would be quite \nconvenient for the purpose if you could just get into them (which doesn't \nstrike me as impossible). Another possibility, not connected with this, is \nthat he came in through a segment of the ship where the monitors were more \nor less non-functional, due to the removal of precious cards.\n\nI thought, though I can't prove of course, that it was implied that the \nfamilial rebellion was what brought the Plan of Pas to a pause (say that 3 \ntimes fast). Oreb was used as a comparison at one point; Pas wanted to force \nthem out of the cage that they considered a shelter, whereas Echidna & Co. \nwanted to keep them in the cage.\n\nChris" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good point. I, too, recall that the ship had been in orbit for several\ndecades, but can't remember where in the text that information is found. In\nany event, we are given that Quetzal had been Prolocutor for 33 years. This\nraises two questions I don't recall having been addressed.\n\n1) How could an inhumi have attained that position? From comments Quetzal\nmade to Gulo, it seems that high positions in the Chapter were more a \nmatter\nof politics than merit. It's hard to imagine an inhumi rising through the\nranks as an ordinary augur. Six years in the schola for augurs would \npresent\ntoo many opportunities for discovery (athletics, showers, dormitories). \nIt's\neasier to imagine an inhumu assuming the human guise of an older man,\nperhaps even the identity of the heir apparent to the position, on the eve\nof his replacement. The convenient death of the sitting Prolocutor would\npresent no difficulty for an inhumi. After that, the inhumu could use the\npower of his office to limit access by the public, minimizing chances of\nexposure. The second question follows close on the first.\n\n2) Who was Quetzal's mama? That is, where and how did an inhuma get the\nhuman blood needed to pass human intelligence to her offspring? From\ninformation in the SS books, it seems that the mother would have to have\nspawned her offspring on Green. Did she get the blood from a human on Green\nor a human on the _Whorl_? If the former, who was he and what was he doing\nthere? If the latter, how did she get aboard, then go back to Green, then\nget her child back to the ship? An inhumi can't just fly through the hull \nof\nthe ship like the atmosphere of Blue.\n\nScylla-in-Chenille told Auk that Pas was dead, had been wiped \"out of core\nthirty years ago\" (LS2; ch. 11). If true, this means that Quetzal was on \nthe\nship *at least* three years before Pas' demise in Mainframe. Given that\nMainframe was the hub of intelligence on the ship, and that Pas was the\nruling entity there, it's hard to believe that a lander could have either\nlaunched from or returned to the ship without his knowledge. Even if Pas \nhad\nsomehow been kept in the dark, Mainframe itself should have been aware of\nthe comings and goings of landers. That seems to be what the Plan of Pas \nwas\nall about. *Someone* in Mainframe had to know what was going on. Who? Why\nwas there no announcement to the cities that the voyage was over? Why, for\nthirty years after Pas was dead, did the ship stay idly in orbit? Was the\nfamilial rebellion related to, as either cause or effect, the _Whorl's_\ninactivity?\n\n-Roy\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-11-19T15:23:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal in orbit", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy, I always like your posts because you always ask interesting, meaty \nquestions. Let me see how well I can address them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good point. I, too, recall that the ship had been in orbit for several\ndecades, but can't remember where in the text that information is found. In\nany event, we are given that Quetzal had been Prolocutor for 33 years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Before I really get started, here are some quotes related to time on \nboard the Whorl, the first of which has already been cited in Roy's \nprevious post:\n\n From LAKE OF THE LONG SUN, Chapter 11 (Some Summations):\nScylla-in-Chenille speaking:\n\"'[Pas is] dead now, though. We wiped him out of core thirty years ago.'\"\n\n From CALDE OF THE LONG SUN (Gods, Persons, and Animals Mentioned in the \nText):\n\"Patera QUETZAL, the ranking augur in Viron and for thirty-three years \nthe head of its chapter.\"\n\n From CALDE, Chapter 1 (The Slaves of Scylla):\n\"For some while he [Quetzal] remained before the window, motionless, \ncosmetics streaming from his face in rivulets of pink and buff, while he \ncontemplated the tamarind he had caused to be planted there twenty years \npreviously. It was taller already than many buildings called lofty; its \nglossy, rain-washed leaves brushed the windowframe and now even, by the \nwidth of a child's hand, sidled into his bedchamber like so many timid \nsibyls, confident of welcome yet habitually shy. Their parent tree, \nnourished by his own efforts, was of more than sufficient size now, and \na fount of joy to him: a sheltering presence, a memorial of home, the \nhighroad to freedom.\"\n\n From CALDE, Chapter 4 (The Plan of Pas):\nSilk speaking with Quetzal\n\" 'You've been Prolocutor for many years, Your Cognizance. Since long \nbefore I was born. You were Prolocutor in the days of the last calde.'\n Quetzal nodded. 'I knew him well. I intend to know you better, \nPatera Calde.'\"\n...\nQuetzal speaking\n\"'...Before Kypris manifested here on Scylsday, the Windows of our city \nhad been empty for decades. I can't take credit for that, it wasn't my \ndoing. But I've done everything in my power to prevent theophanies. It \nhasn't been much, but I've done what I could. I proscribed human \nsacrifice, and got it made law, for one thing. I admit I'm proud of that.'\"\n...\nQuetzal speaking\n\"'...I'm mocking you, Patera Calde, of course I am. But not idly. My \nquestion's perfectly serious. Echidna told you Pas is dead, and you \ncan't help believing her. I've known it for thirty years, since shortly \nafter his death, in fact.\"\n\nNote that we have from two independent sources that Pas has been dead \nfor 30 years -- from Scylla herself, and from Patera Quetzal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This raises two questions I don't recall having been addressed.\n\n1) How could an inhumi have attained that position? From comments Quetzal\nmade to Gulo, it seems that high positions in the Chapter were more a matter\nof politics than merit. It's hard to imagine an inhumi rising through the\nranks as an ordinary augur. Six years in the schola for augurs would present\ntoo many opportunities for discovery (athletics, showers, dormitories). It's\neasier to imagine an inhumu assuming the human guise of an older man,\nperhaps even the identity of the heir apparent to the position, on the eve\nof his replacement. The convenient death of the sitting Prolocutor would\npresent no difficulty for an inhumi. After that, the inhumu could use the\npower of his office to limit access by the public, minimizing chances of\nexposure. The second question follows close on the first." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think these speculations are on the mark, and that Quetzal probably \nassumed the identity of an already-existing or soon-to-be confirmed \nProlocutor. Further, I think Quetzal the inhumi has held the office for \nat least twenty years, if not the full thirty-three (see the quote above \nabout planting the tamarind tree)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Who was Quetzal's mama? That is, where and how did an inhuma get the\nhuman blood needed to pass human intelligence to her offspring? From\ninformation in the SS books, it seems that the mother would have to have\nspawned her offspring on Green." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's true. Not only does it need to be warm enough (and there might \nwell have been places in the Whorl that were warm enough for them to \nspawn, especially since the Whorl has been getting hotter and hotter \nover the last few decades), but there also need to be the right kind of \nmicroorganisms in the water. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did she get the blood from a human on Green\nor a human on the _Whorl_? If the former, who was he and what was he doing\nthere? If the latter, how did she get aboard, then go back to Green, then\nget her child back to the ship? An inhumi can't just fly through the hull of\nthe ship like the atmosphere of Blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, they can't fly through the hull, but remember what the Neighbor told \nHorn in RETURN TO THE WHORL (my apologies for not being able to quote \nthe passage directly, but I don't have my copy of RttW with me). Horn \nwas told that the Neighbors had infected the Whorl with inhumi to act as \na kind of mirror, so that the human race could be judged as to their \nworthiness of \"inheriting\" Blue. That is, the Neighbors are the ones \nresponsible for the inhumi in the Whorl. Either the Neighbors made it \npossible for the inhumi to get aboard a lander that had found its way to \nGreen, or made the journey possible by some other means that is not \nspecified in the text.\n\nMy guess would be that when the Whorl entered the Blue/Green system some \n33+ years ago, the Plan of Pas began to be carried out in at least a few \ncities, though clearly not in Viron since there would be people who \nremembered such an event and we have no indication of such people. That \nis, landers were boarded in some other city, made the trip to Blue and \nGreen, which got the Neighbors' attention. In order to check out \nhumanity, they somehow got a whole bunch of inhumi into one or more of \nthe landers before they re-launched back to the Whorl, sat back and \nwatched the results.\n\nAs to who the human was that served as the \"model\" upon which Quetzal \nwas built, I feel fairly confident that it was some kind of augur or \n\"holy man.\" See below for an explanation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Scylla-in-Chenille told Auk that Pas was dead, had been wiped \"out of core\nthirty years ago\" (LS2; ch. 11). If true, this means that Quetzal was on the\nship *at least* three years before Pas' demise in Mainframe. Given that\nMainframe was the hub of intelligence on the ship, and that Pas was the\nruling entity there, it's hard to believe that a lander could have either\nlaunched from or returned to the ship without his knowledge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It needn't have been without his knowledge. Just the opposite. Pas \nwanted the landers to be launching and carrying people down to the \nplanet(s). In fact, that's what the \"Plan of Pas\" was. It was only \nafter the initial launchings (again, in cities other than Viron) that \nthings began to go awry. It's not clear to me if the other gods \nrebelled against the Plan of Pas on their own, or if they were somehow \nencouraged to rebel by the infiltrating inhumi. My guess would be the \nformer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even if Pas had\nsomehow been kept in the dark, Mainframe itself should have been aware of\nthe comings and goings of landers. That seems to be what the Plan of Pas was\nall about. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*Someone* in Mainframe had to know what was going on. Who? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pas. Until he was \"killed.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why was there no announcement to the cities that the voyage was over? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My guess is that Pas actually did have a plan for the orderly evacuation \nof the Whorl. He had gone to the trouble of separating the cities to \nensure they wouldn't destroy one another during the voyage (and perhaps \nfor other reasons as well), so it stands to reason that he wouldn't want \nall the landers everywhere to be blasting off at the same time. That \nwould just be utter chaos. There probably was an announcement in \ncertain cities that the voyage was over and that the Plan of Pas was now \nto be fulfilled. In fact, the more I think about it, the more sense it \nmakes for the first landers to be peopled with his own priests -- those \nwho would be responsible for setting up the hardware that would allow \nhim to descend and continue his godhood on the planet. One such lander \n(in my imagined scenario) landed on Green, and one its occupants served \nas the \"parent\" of Quetzal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why, for thirty years after Pas was dead, did the ship stay idly in orbit?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, because Pas was dead and was no longer able to carry out his plan. \n Those responsible for killing him didn't want (for some reason) to \ncontinue carrying it out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Was the familial rebellion related to, as either cause or effect,\nthe _Whorl's_ inactivity?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I believe so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cilluff1 at optonline.net", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2002-11-19T15:56:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal in orbit", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Charles Reed provided, among many other quotes and interesting\nobservations, the following:\n\n<<>>\n\nThis is something that has puzzled me, although I have only just started\nreading Green so perhaps it becomes clear. But, why did Quetzal try to\nprevent any more theophanies? I have no real answer, or even theory, but\nonly some musings that touch upon the subject. Pas chose Blue and Green as\nthe destinations for the Whorl -- clearly the Whorl didn't arrive there at\nrandom, and Pas (or Typhon, I should say) must have been familiar enough\nwith them to know they would be habitable to humans. Presumably, then, he\nknew about the inhumi as well, yet he still chose Blue and Green as\ndestinations. Why? Was he \"in cahoots\" with the inhumi (and is that how\nQuetzal got on board the Whorl?)? After all, Quetzal speaks fondly of Pas\n(the type of person who loves a bird so much he sets them free) but not so\nnicely about the other \"gods\" (they are the type who cage those they love).\nThe other \"gods\" of the Whorl stymied Pas' Plan to bring humanity to Blue\nand Green for years, perhaps because they knew of the inhumi -- is this why\nthey killed Pas, to prevent the delivery of humanity into the hands of the\ninhumi, and is it also why Quetzal made such efforts to prevent\ntheophanies? " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-11-19T15:27:17+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Quetzal in orbit", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy ponders:\n1) How could an inhumi have attained [the position of Prolocutor]?\n\n2) Who was Quetzal's mama?\n\nCrush offers:\n1) It is extremely unlikely that Quetzal could have attained his position at\nall without the conscious assistance of persons in power. Imagine an old man\nsuddenly appearing out of nowhere and being a candidate for Pope without\nextensive experience in the Church and without personal connections among\nthe Cardinals. Quetzal was undoubtedly skulking around somewhere before he\ntook up the bacculus.\n\n2) I have reasons to believe that this question is not important:\nhttp://gene-wolfe.tripod.com/midas.htm" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-11-19T16:54:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal in orbit", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "cilluff1 at optonline.net wrote:\n<<>>\n\nThis is something that has puzzled me, although I have only just started\nreading Green so perhaps it becomes clear. But, why did Quetzal try to\nprevent any more theophanies?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Quetzal wanted to prevent theophanies so that the populace \nwouldn't be informed that Pas was dead. (Of course, this is exactly \nwhat happened when Echidna appeared at the Sun Street Manteion during \nRose's funeral rites, even though very few people actually heard what \nshe said.) Quetzal wants the Plan of Pas carried out, and anything that \ncould hinder that -- such as the other gods showing up in sacred windows \nand telling everybody that the Pas is dead -- is what he works against." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I have no real answer, or even theory, but\nonly some musings that touch upon the subject. Pas chose Blue and Green as\nthe destinations for the Whorl -- clearly the Whorl didn't arrive there at\nrandom, and Pas (or Typhon, I should say) must have been familiar enough\nwith them to know they would be habitable to humans. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK so far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Presumably, then, he\nknew about the inhumi as well, yet he still chose Blue and Green as\ndestinations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not true. Here are Gene Wolfe's own words, which you can find in volume \n6 of the Whorl archives: \"Typhon did not know about the inhumi [and] \nwould have done everything possible to keep them out of the Whorl if he \nhad.\" And besides, even if he had known about the inhumi from his \npalaces on Urth, he would only have seen them as the beasts they were -- \nthey could not have assumed human form until the Whorl, loaded with \nhumans, actually arrived in their system and became food for them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Why? Was he \"in cahoots\" with the inhumi (and is that how\nQuetzal got on board the Whorl?)? After all, Quetzal speaks fondly of Pas\n(the type of person who loves a bird so much he sets them free) but not so\nnicely about the other \"gods\" (they are the type who cage those they love)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quetzal speaks fondly of Pas because he agrees with Pas's plan. He \nwants the humans to come down to Green so that the other inhumi can be \nelevated above the bestial level they have been living at ever since the \nNeighbors departed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The other \"gods\" of the Whorl stymied Pas' Plan to bring humanity to Blue\nand Green for years, perhaps because they knew of the inhumi -- is this why\nthey killed Pas, to prevent the delivery of humanity into the hands of the\ninhumi?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. I think Quetzal's assessment is accurate -- they cage \nwhat they love. They also love being gods, and know they wouldn't be \ngods if there were no people aboard the Whorl to worship them. It might \nbe argued that they could have set themselves up as gods on Blue and \nGreen as well, and I don't really have a could counter-argument for \nthat, other than to guess that Pas kept his plans for transferring \ngodhood planetside pretty close to the vest. That is, they didn't know \nhow. Kind-of weak, I know, but it's the best I can come up with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and is it also why Quetzal made such efforts to prevent theophanies?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I don't think so. Quetzal wants the humans to go to Green. He \nwants the Plan of Pas to succeed. He wants the inhumi to become \"human\" \nlike he has become \"human\" because as Horn notes on at least a couple of \noccasions in Short Sun books, without humanity the inhumu would be \nnothing more than mindless beasts.\n\nCharles" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-11-19T17:05:00+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Quetzal in orbit", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Charles Reed quotes:\nHere are Gene Wolfe's own words, which you can find in volume\n6 of the Whorl archives: \"Typhon did not know about the inhumi [and]\nwould have done everything possible to keep them out of the Whorl if he\nhad.\"\n\nThis puts a painful kink in my theories. Of course, even if Typhon did not\nknow the target planets were full of blood-sucking monsters (and I never\nimagined he did) it does not mean he wasn't manipulated by Quetzal on Urth.\nAnd based on Quetzal's statements in LS3:1 (Slaves of Scylla) that still\nseems probable to me.\n\nStill this hurts.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cilluff1 at optonline.net", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2002-11-19T17:36:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal in orbit", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Charles wrote:\n\n<<<>Presumably, then, he" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "knew about the inhumi as well, yet he still chose Blue and Green as\ndestinations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not true. Here are Gene Wolfe's own words, which you can find in volume \n6 of the Whorl archives: \"Typhon did not know about the inhumi [and] \nwould have done everything possible to keep them out of the Whorl if he \nhad.\">>\n\nAh, straight from the horse's mouth! It's tough to argue with Gene Wolfe\nhimself about what Typhon knew! : ) I agreed with all your other points\nabout Quetzal's motivation, my only speculation was to whether Pas was in\nthe know with the inhumi. Alas, apparently not! Too bad, though, I like\nthe sinister Typhon much more than the benificent Pas...." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-11-19T17:41:48+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Quetzal in orbit", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. wrote..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) How could an inhumi have attained that position? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's easier to imagine an inhumu \nassuming the human guise of an older man, perhaps even the \nidentity of the heir apparent to the position, on the eve of \nhis replacement. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like this, and the variations that have been suggested on\nit, but I perceive one hole that needs plugging ... \n\nWe repeatedly see an inhum[u|a] more-or-less successfully \ncreate for [him|her]self a human identity, and masquerade \nas a human who never existed before.\n\nBut can anyone cite a specific case where an inhum? \nsuccessfully masqueraded as a specific, already-existing\nhuman person, in the presence of people who have known\nthat human person for years? (The case of Jahlee in the \nfarmhouse does _not_ work for this...)\n\nLacking that, is there any reason to believe that an\ninhum? _could_ carry on such a deception, over a period\nof years, among the people who knew the original best?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-11-20T00:14:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal in orbit", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Charles Reed wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From CALDE, Chapter 1 (The Slaves of Scylla):\n\"For some while he [Quetzal] remained before the window, motionless, \ncosmetics streaming from his face in rivulets of pink and buff, while he\ncontemplated the tamarind he had caused to be planted there twenty years\npreviously. It was taller already than many buildings called lofty; its\nglossy, rain-washed leaves brushed the windowframe and now even, by the \nwidth of a child's hand, sidled into his bedchamber like so many timid \nsibyls, confident of welcome yet habitually shy. Their parent tree, \nnourished by his own efforts, was of more than sufficient size now, and \na fount of joy to him: a sheltering presence, a memorial of home, the \nhighroad to freedom.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nThanks for this quotation!\n\nI see three striking things about it. One is that it seems to support\nMarc's contention that the trees are significant to the inhumi (as he\njust noted). And this is an Urthly tamarind tree, not a tree native\nto the Groon system! Unless... hard though I find it to believe...\nUshas is Blue, tamarinds are native there, and a presumably Urth-\ndescended tree can remind Quetzal of home. Or is it just that any\nsizable tree reminds him of Green?\n\nThe second striking thing is the questions it raises. Sufficient\nsize for what? How the highroad to freedom? Quetzal can fly (right?);\nhe doesn't need the tree for climbing out the window.\n\nThe third is that Horn made up this passage. I can hardly believe\nQuetzal ever told him these solitary thoughts. So what does Horn\nknow about trees and inhumi, years before he sets out to look for\nSilk, and is he hiding his knowledge from us? Or are we supposed to\nforget that Horn is the narrator and take this as coming from the\nomniscient author, or believe that Horn is divinely inspired?\n\nUnlike Marc, though I see \"their parent tree\" as just \"the tree that\nis the parent of those leaves\".\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }