Subject: (urth) Quetzal in orbit

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:24:51 +0000

Charles Reed wrote:
>At the time Silk was enlightened, the whorl had been in orbit around the
>"short sun" for about thirty years, and therefore could not have been
>going faster than light at any time during Silk's life which, at the
>beginning of NIGHTSIDE, was 23 years long.

Good point. I, too, recall that the ship had been in orbit for several
decades, but can't remember where in the text that information is found. In
any event, we are given that Quetzal had been Prolocutor for 33 years. This
raises two questions I don't recall having been addressed.

1) How could an inhumi have attained that position? From comments Quetzal
made to Gulo, it seems that high positions in the Chapter were more a matter
of politics than merit. It's hard to imagine an inhumi rising through the
ranks as an ordinary augur. Six years in the schola for augurs would present
too many opportunities for discovery (athletics, showers, dormitories). It's
easier to imagine an inhumu assuming the human guise of an older man,
perhaps even the identity of the heir apparent to the position, on the eve
of his replacement. The convenient death of the sitting Prolocutor would
present no difficulty for an inhumi. After that, the inhumu could use the
power of his office to limit access by the public, minimizing chances of
exposure. The second question follows close on the first.

2) Who was Quetzal's mama? That is, where and how did an inhuma get the
human blood needed to pass human intelligence to her offspring? From
information in the SS books, it seems that the mother would have to have
spawned her offspring on Green. Did she get the blood from a human on Green
or a human on the _Whorl_? If the former, who was he and what was he doing
there? If the latter, how did she get aboard, then go back to Green, then
get her child back to the ship? An inhumi can't just fly through the hull of
the ship like the atmosphere of Blue.

Scylla-in-Chenille told Auk that Pas was dead, had been wiped "out of core
thirty years ago" (LS2; ch. 11). If true, this means that Quetzal was on the
ship *at least* three years before Pas' demise in Mainframe. Given that
Mainframe was the hub of intelligence on the ship, and that Pas was the
ruling entity there, it's hard to believe that a lander could have either
launched from or returned to the ship without his knowledge. Even if Pas had
somehow been kept in the dark, Mainframe itself should have been aware of
the comings and goings of landers. That seems to be what the Plan of Pas was
all about. *Someone* in Mainframe had to know what was going on. Who? Why
was there no announcement to the cities that the voyage was over? Why, for
thirty years after Pas was dead, did the ship stay idly in orbit? Was the
familial rebellion related to, as either cause or effect, the _Whorl's_
inactivity?

-Roy

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From: Chris <rasputin_ at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:46:13 +0000

I don't recall it (the Whorl being in orbit for 30+ years) being mentioned 
explicitly in the text at all, but I could be mistaken. However, I think 
Wolfe came out and said it in an interview/Q&A, if that counts. And of 
course it can be inferred from other things, like Quetzal's presence.

Your answer to question 1 seems eminently sensible to me; question 2 is 
tough, but I can think of a couple of things to at least suggest. One 
possibility is that he got into the ship through the cooling system. It's 
mentioned in one passage that many of the tunnels have gone dry that are 
supposed to have been carrying water/coolant, which would be quite 
convenient for the purpose if you could just get into them (which doesn't 
strike me as impossible). Another possibility, not connected with this, is 
that he came in through a segment of the ship where the monitors were more 
or less non-functional, due to the removal of precious cards.

I thought, though I can't prove of course, that it was implied that the 
familial rebellion was what brought the Plan of Pas to a pause (say that 3 
times fast). Oreb was used as a comparison at one point; Pas wanted to force 
them out of the cage that they considered a shelter, whereas Echidna & Co. 
wanted to keep them in the cage.

Chris

>familial rebellion related to, as either cause or effect, the _Whorl's_

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From: Charles Reed <cmreed at link.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:23:30 +0000

Roy, I always like your posts because you always ask interesting, meaty 
questions.  Let me see how well I can address them.

>any event, we are given that Quetzal had been Prolocutor for 33 years.
>
Before I really get started, here are some quotes related to time on 
board the Whorl, the first of which has already been cited in Roy's 
previous post:

 From LAKE OF THE LONG SUN, Chapter 11 (Some Summations):
Scylla-in-Chenille speaking:
"'[Pas is] dead now, though.  We wiped him out of core thirty years ago.'"

 From CALDE OF THE LONG SUN (Gods, Persons, and Animals Mentioned in the 
Text):
"Patera QUETZAL, the ranking augur in Viron and for thirty-three years 
the head of its chapter."

 From CALDE, Chapter 1 (The Slaves of Scylla):
"For some while he [Quetzal] remained before the window, motionless, 
cosmetics streaming from his face in rivulets of pink and buff, while he 
contemplated the tamarind he had caused to be planted there twenty years 
previously.  It was taller already than many buildings called lofty; its 
glossy, rain-washed leaves brushed the windowframe and now even, by the 
width of a child's hand, sidled into his bedchamber like so many timid 
sibyls, confident of welcome yet habitually shy.  Their parent tree, 
nourished by his own efforts, was of more than sufficient size now, and 
a fount of joy to him: a sheltering presence, a memorial of home, the 
highroad to freedom."

 From CALDE, Chapter 4 (The Plan of Pas):
Silk speaking with Quetzal
"  'You've been Prolocutor for many years, Your Cognizance.  Since long 
before I was born.  You were Prolocutor in the days of the last calde.'
   Quetzal nodded.  'I knew him well.  I intend to know you better, 
Patera Calde.'"
...
Quetzal speaking
"'...Before Kypris manifested here on Scylsday, the Windows of our city 
had been empty for decades.  I can't take credit for that, it wasn't my 
doing.  But I've done everything in my power to prevent theophanies.  It 
hasn't been much, but I've done what I could.  I proscribed human 
sacrifice, and got it made law, for one thing.  I admit I'm proud of that.'"
...
Quetzal speaking
"'...I'm mocking you, Patera Calde, of course I am.  But not idly.  My 
question's perfectly serious.  Echidna told you Pas is dead, and you 
can't help believing her.  I've known it for thirty years, since shortly 
after his death, in fact."

Note that we have from two independent sources that Pas has been dead 
for 30 years -- from Scylla herself, and from Patera Quetzal.

>This raises two questions I don't recall having been addressed.
>
I think these speculations are on the mark, and that Quetzal probably 
assumed the identity of an already-existing or soon-to-be confirmed 
Prolocutor.  Further, I think Quetzal the inhumi has held the office for 
at least twenty years, if not the full thirty-three (see the quote above 
about planting the tamarind tree).

>spawned her offspring on Green.
>
That's true.  Not only does it need to be warm enough (and there might 
well have been places in the Whorl that were warm enough for them to 
spawn, especially since the Whorl has been getting hotter and hotter 
over the last few decades), but there also need to be the right kind of 
microorganisms in the water.  

> Did she get the blood from a human on Green
No, they can't fly through the hull, but remember what the Neighbor told 
Horn in RETURN TO THE WHORL (my apologies for not being able to quote 
the passage directly, but I don't have my copy of RttW with me).  Horn 
was told that the Neighbors had infected the Whorl with inhumi to act as 
a kind of mirror, so that the human race could be judged as to their 
worthiness of "inheriting" Blue.  That is, the Neighbors are the ones 
responsible for the inhumi in the Whorl.  Either the Neighbors made it 
possible for the inhumi to get aboard a lander that had found its way to 
Green, or made the journey possible by some other means that is not 
specified in the text.

My guess would be that when the Whorl entered the Blue/Green system some 
33+ years ago, the Plan of Pas began to be carried out in at least a few 
cities, though clearly not in Viron since there would be people who 
remembered such an event and we have no indication of such people.  That 
is, landers were boarded in some other city, made the trip to Blue and 
Green, which got the Neighbors' attention.  In order to check out 
humanity, they somehow got a whole bunch of inhumi into one or more of 
the landers before they re-launched back to the Whorl, sat back and 
watched the results.

As to who the human was that served as the "model" upon which Quetzal 
was built, I feel fairly confident that it was some kind of augur or 
"holy man."  See below for an explanation.

>launched from or returned to the ship without his knowledge.
>
It needn't have been without his knowledge.  Just the opposite.  Pas 
wanted the landers to be launching and carrying people down to the 
planet(s).   In fact, that's what the "Plan of Pas" was.  It was only 
after the initial launchings (again, in cities other than Viron) that 
things began to go awry.  It's not clear to me if the other gods 
rebelled against the Plan of Pas on their own, or if they were somehow 
encouraged to rebel by the infiltrating inhumi.  My guess would be the 
former.

> Even if Pas had
>all about. 
Exactly.

>*Someone* in Mainframe had to know what was going on. Who? 
>
Pas.  Until he was "killed."

>Why was there no announcement to the cities that the voyage was over? 
>
My guess is that Pas actually did have a plan for the orderly evacuation 
of the Whorl.  He had gone to the trouble of separating the cities to 
ensure they wouldn't destroy one another during the voyage (and perhaps 
for other reasons as well), so it stands to reason that he wouldn't want 
all the landers everywhere to be blasting off at the same time.  That 
would just be utter chaos.  There probably was an announcement in 
certain cities that the voyage was over and that the Plan of Pas was now 
to be fulfilled.  In fact, the more I think about it, the more sense it 
makes for the first landers to be peopled with his own priests -- those 
who would be responsible for setting up the hardware that would allow 
him to descend and continue his godhood on the planet.  One such lander 
(in my imagined scenario) landed on Green, and one its occupants served 
as the "parent" of Quetzal.

>Why, for thirty years after Pas was dead, did the ship stay idly in orbit?
>
Well, because Pas was dead and was no longer able to carry out his plan. 
 Those responsible for killing him didn't want (for some reason) to 
continue carrying it out.

>Was the familial rebellion related to, as either cause or effect,
>the _Whorl's_ inactivity?
>
Yes, I believe so.

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From: cilluff1 at optonline.net <cilluff1 at optonline.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:56:51 +0000

Charles Reed provided, among many other quotes and interesting
observations, the following:

<<<Quetzal speaking
...>>>

This is something that has puzzled me, although I have only just started
reading Green so perhaps it becomes clear.  But, why did Quetzal try to
prevent any more theophanies?  I have no real answer, or even theory, but
only some musings that touch upon the subject.  Pas chose Blue and Green as
the destinations for the Whorl -- clearly the Whorl didn't arrive there at
random, and Pas (or Typhon, I should say) must have been familiar enough
with them to know they would be habitable to humans.  Presumably, then, he
knew about the inhumi as well, yet he still chose Blue and Green as
destinations.  Why?  Was he "in cahoots" with the inhumi (and is that how
Quetzal got on board the Whorl?)?  After all, Quetzal speaks fondly of Pas
(the type of person who loves a bird so much he sets them free) but not so
nicely about the other "gods" (they are the type who cage those they love).
The other "gods" of the Whorl stymied Pas' Plan to bring humanity to Blue
and Green for years, perhaps because they knew of the inhumi -- is this why
they killed Pas, to prevent the delivery of humanity into the hands of the
inhumi, and is it also why Quetzal made such efforts to prevent
theophanies?  

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:27:17 +0000

Roy ponders:
1) How could an inhumi have attained [the position of Prolocutor]?

2) Who was Quetzal's mama?

Crush offers:
1) It is extremely unlikely that Quetzal could have attained his position at
all without the conscious assistance of persons in power. Imagine an old man
suddenly appearing out of nowhere and being a candidate for Pope without
extensive experience in the Church and without personal connections among
the Cardinals. Quetzal was undoubtedly skulking around somewhere before he
took up the bacculus.

2) I have reasons to believe that this question is not important:
http://gene-wolfe.tripod.com/midas.htm

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From: Charles Reed <cmreed at link.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:54:29 +0000

cilluff1 at optonline.net wrote:

>prevent any more theophanies?
>

I think Quetzal wanted to prevent theophanies so that the populace 
wouldn't be informed that Pas was dead.  (Of course, this is exactly 
what happened when Echidna appeared at the Sun Street Manteion during 
Rose's funeral rites, even though very few people actually heard what 
she said.)  Quetzal wants the Plan of Pas carried out, and anything that 
could hinder that -- such as the other gods showing up in sacred windows 
and telling everybody that the Pas is dead -- is what he works against.

>  I have no real answer, or even theory, but
>with them to know they would be habitable to humans.  
>

OK so far.

>Presumably, then, he
>destinations.

Not true.  Here are Gene Wolfe's own words, which you can find in volume 
6 of the Whorl archives:  "Typhon did not know about the inhumi [and] 
would have done everything possible to keep them out of the Whorl if he 
had."  And besides, even if he had known about the inhumi from his 
palaces on Urth, he would only have seen them as the beasts they were -- 
they could not have assumed human form until the Whorl, loaded with 
humans, actually arrived in their system and became food for them.

>  Why?  Was he "in cahoots" with the inhumi (and is that how

Quetzal speaks fondly of Pas because he agrees with Pas's plan.  He 
wants the humans to come down to Green so that the other inhumi can be 
elevated above the bestial level they have been living at ever since the 
Neighbors departed.

>inhumi?

I don't think so.  I think Quetzal's assessment is accurate -- they cage 
what they love.  They also love being gods, and know they wouldn't be 
gods if there were no people aboard the Whorl to worship them.  It might 
be argued that they could have set themselves up as gods on Blue and 
Green as well, and I don't really have a could counter-argument for 
that, other than to guess that Pas kept his plans for transferring 
godhood planetside pretty close to the vest.  That is, they didn't know 
how.  Kind-of weak, I know, but it's the best I can come up with.

>and is it also why Quetzal made such efforts to prevent theophanies?
>

Again, I don't think so.  Quetzal wants the humans to go to Green.  He 
wants the Plan of Pas to succeed.  He wants the inhumi to become "human" 
like he has become "human" because as Horn notes on at least a couple of 
occasions in Short Sun books, without humanity the inhumu would be 
nothing more than mindless beasts.

Charles

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:05:00 +0000

Charles Reed quotes:
Here are Gene Wolfe's own words, which you can find in volume
6 of the Whorl archives:  "Typhon did not know about the inhumi [and]
would have done everything possible to keep them out of the Whorl if he
had."

This puts a painful kink in my theories. Of course, even if Typhon did not
know the target planets were full of blood-sucking monsters (and I never
imagined he did) it does not mean he wasn't manipulated by Quetzal on Urth.
And based on Quetzal's statements in LS3:1 (Slaves of Scylla) that still
seems probable to me.

Still this hurts.

-- Crush

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From: cilluff1 at optonline.net <cilluff1 at optonline.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:36:19 +0000

Charles wrote:

<<<>Presumably, then, he

had.">>

Ah, straight from the horse's mouth!  It's tough to argue with Gene Wolfe
himself about what Typhon knew! : )  I agreed with all your other points
about Quetzal's motivation, my only speculation was to whether Pas was in
the know with the inhumi.  Alas, apparently not!  Too bad, though, I like
the sinister Typhon much more than the benificent Pas....

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:41:48 +0000

Roy C. wrote...

> 1) How could an inhumi have attained that position? 
[...]
> It's easier to imagine an inhumu 
> assuming the human guise of an older man, perhaps even the 
> identity of the heir apparent to the position, on the eve of 
> his replacement. 

I like this, and the variations that have been suggested on
it, but I perceive one hole that needs plugging ... 

We repeatedly see an inhum[u|a] more-or-less successfully 
create for [him|her]self a human identity, and masquerade 
as a human who never existed before.

But can anyone cite a specific case where an inhum? 
successfully masqueraded as a specific, already-existing
human person, in the presence of people who have known
that human person for years? (The case of Jahlee in the 
farmhouse does _not_ work for this...)

Lacking that, is there any reason to believe that an
inhum? _could_ carry on such a deception, over a period
of years, among the people who knew the original best?

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:14:31 +0000

--- Charles Reed <cmreed at link.com> wrote:
...
...

Thanks for this quotation!

I see three striking things about it.  One is that it seems to support
Marc's contention that the trees are significant to the inhumi (as he
just noted).  And this is an Urthly tamarind tree, not a tree native
to the Groon system!  Unless... hard though I find it to believe...
Ushas is Blue, tamarinds are native there, and a presumably Urth-
descended tree can remind Quetzal of home.  Or is it just that any
sizable tree reminds him of Green?

The second striking thing is the questions it raises.  Sufficient
size for what?  How the highroad to freedom?  Quetzal can fly (right?);
he doesn't need the tree for climbing out the window.

The third is that Horn made up this passage.  I can hardly believe
Quetzal ever told him these solitary thoughts.  So what does Horn
know about trees and inhumi, years before he sets out to look for
Silk, and is he hiding his knowledge from us?  Or are we supposed to
forget that Horn is the narrator and take this as coming from the
omniscient author, or believe that Horn is divinely inspired?

Unlike Marc, though I see "their parent tree" as just "the tree that
is the parent of those leaves".

Jerry Friedman

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