{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3598", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3598, "subject": "Potto and Typhon", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-11-22T18:26:15+00:00", "last": "2002-11-22T23:36:13+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cilluff1 at optonline.net", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2002-11-22T18:26:15+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Potto and Typhon", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush wrote:\n\nCrush responds:\nOh, no. Not at all. Potto says in LS4:1\n\"As we aged, Cousin Tarsier made us new bodies *out of chems*.\"\n\nThis statement horrifies Mint who asks, \"What became of the chems?\" To their\nminds?\" and then, \"You got this body from another person. And-and changed it\nto look like you? You must have. Did he consent to any of that?\">>\n\nReading this excerpt, I am struck by the parallel between what Loris,\nPotto, etc. did in stealing these chem bodies for themselves and Typhon's\nappropriation of Piaton. I am not what, if anything, GW may have meant by\nthe parallel, perhaps just that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and\nthat those in power will do anything to maintain it, even cheating death by\nforcing the death of others." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-11-22T21:21:57+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Potto and Typhon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush writes ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reading this excerpt, I am struck by the parallel between \nwhat Loris, Potto, etc. did in stealing these chem bodies for \nthemselves and Typhon's appropriation of Piaton. I am not \nwhat, if anything, GW may have meant by the parallel, perhaps \njust that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and that those \nin power will do anything to maintain it, even cheating death \nby forcing the death of others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I do not feel competent to interpret it, it seems to me that\na constant theme of identity (and especially the ambiguous nature \nof identity) runs through most, if not all, of Gene Wolfe's major\nwork -- and certainly through the \"Lupiverse\" or \"Briah Cycle,\"\nincluding the \"Sun\" books and, possibly, THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS;\nalso in the Latro novels.\n\nOne might go so far as to accuse Wolfe of \"deconstructing\" identity \nthrough these books. A quick, from-memory list of some of the \nidentity-related issues ... because this comes from my memory, I \nhave to use place-holders for some names ... I intend the list as\nsuggestive, not comprehensive or exhaustive, and I'm only listing\nquestions that seem to me to bear directly on the uberquestion of\nidentity ... I do not believe most of the questions here have \nreceived definitive answers, and indeed wonder if Wolfe intends \nthem to _have_ such answers; but it seems clear to me that, at the \nvery least, he intends his readers to _think_ about these questions.\n\n5HC:\n----\no The name and identity of Number Five\no The identity and relationship of Number Five's \"brother\" \n David and \"aunt\" Jeannine to himself and the Wolfe line,\n and Jeannine's identity as Aubrey Veil\no The identity and nature of \"John V. Marsch\" and/or \"Victor\"\no Who is human? Who is an abo? Who is a clone? Are abos \n descended from Atlanteans? Are the Vanished People different\n from abos? What about Naomi?\no Why are all boy-children \"John?\" \no Are John and John two people or one? \n\nBotNS/UotNS:\n------------\no Do one's memories compose one's identity? (Does a \n memorious person like Severian have a stronger or a \n weaker sense of self than \"normal\" people?)\no Is a resurrected person the same person as the person \n who died?\no In what sense is an aquastor the person it presents?\no Who are Severian's parents? How and how much does one's\n parentage/ancestry determinewho one is? (nature/nurture)\no What does the addition of artifical parts do to a human's\n identity (Jolenta, Baldanders)?\no Does a created person (Jonah, Dr. Talos, etc.) have a \no What does the use of the analeptic alzabo do to one's \n identity? \"personal\" identity, or is it a thing?\no Does the alzabo itself have a personal identity? Is this\n separate from the identities of the people it consumes? Do\n they continue to have separate identities? (\"My name is \n Legion...\")\no When a timewalker crosses his own path, who is who and why?\no Is this story set in our future, our past, or neither of the \n above, and what difference does it make?\no How many Severians are there, and are they the same person\n or not? (Decide for yourself whether or not to include\n Apu-Punchau...)\n\nBotLS/BotSS:\n------------\no Is Pas Typhon or just a representation of him? (What about\n that other head? Piaton?) Is he the same person after he\n is killed and reassembled? And how about Pas-Silk?\no What happens to the identity of a possessed person? Of the\n possessor? Is this different in the case of Mucor's \n possession (which appears to have a different fundamental\n mechanism, in that she does not appear to enter through \n the eyes)?\no Who is the Narrator and when is he whom and why?\no To what extent can an inhum?, a hus, or a chem be\n considered a person? What about a Neighbor? A night chough?\n A cataphract? A tree?\no Are the inhumi a sentient race? If not, are individual\n inhumi sentient beings?\no When a chem is rebuilt or reprogrammed is it the same\n person?\no Back to identity and memory -- to what extent is Marble \n also Rose? Do they integrate persons or \"just\" memories,\n or is there a difference?\no Whatever happened to minds/souls/whatever of the chems the \n Lesser Primates possessed?\no Who was Potto(?) when he found his body had died?\no If a demon (or a \"god\") pretending to be a god becomes\n (an aspect of) that god, is their identity merged or \n dissolved into the god?\no More about parentage -- Silk's (he seems to have four\n parents), Chen's, Orpine's, etc.\no If Blue is/isn't Ushas, how can/could we know?\n\n\"Soldier\" books:\n----------------\n[I haven't read these many times, or in quite a while, so\nI can't really say much about them, but...]\no Does Latro have an identity at all? Does he construct \n a new one every time he reads his scrolls? If he failed\n to read them, would he be someone else? Nobody at all?\n\nEtc., etc., etc. Perhaps this could form the beginning of an\norganized approach to these questions, especially if others\nchime in with more questions for the list ... I'd be particularly\ncurious to see questions from the stand-alone novels and \nshort stories. (I don't imagine we'd have much trouble coming\nup with a list for PEACE, for example.) Note however, that a\nquestion that simply seeks to put a name on a mysterious figure,\nor determinme whether two figures far apart are \"the same person,\"\nis _not_ likely to be a candidate for this list ... those are\npuzzles, not mysteries." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-11-22T23:36:13+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Potto and Typhon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, for the Soldier books the entire Greek pantheon is of questionable\nidentity. Demeter/Earth Goddess and Kore/Artemis are ostensibly at odds yet\ntheir orders to Latro are not necessarily at odds. Furthermore Latro says in\nMist that the gods are like servants receiving supplicants of a great king.\nBut (in Arete I believe) he says iirc that in talking to the gods he has the\nsense of watching a Greek play in which a single actor plays different\ncharacters merely by putting a different mask before his face.\n\nAlso, (in Mist) Eurycles/Drakaina's identity is in question seeming to be\nsimultaneously the necromancer and the serpent spirit that possesses him.\n\n--Crush\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:ddanehy at siebel.com]\nSent: Friday, November 22, 2002 3:22 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: RE: (urth) Potto and Typhon\n\nCrush writes ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reading this excerpt, I am struck by the parallel between\nwhat Loris, Potto, etc. did in stealing these chem bodies for\nthemselves and Typhon's appropriation of Piaton. I am not\nwhat, if anything, GW may have meant by the parallel, perhaps\njust that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and that those\nin power will do anything to maintain it, even cheating death\nby forcing the death of others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I do not feel competent to interpret it, it seems to me that\na constant theme of identity (and especially the ambiguous nature\nof identity) runs through most, if not all, of Gene Wolfe's major\nwork -- and certainly through the \"Lupiverse\" or \"Briah Cycle,\"\nincluding the \"Sun\" books and, possibly, THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS;\nalso in the Latro novels.\n\nOne might go so far as to accuse Wolfe of \"deconstructing\" identity\nthrough these books. A quick, from-memory list of some of the\nidentity-related issues ... because this comes from my memory, I\nhave to use place-holders for some names ... I intend the list as\nsuggestive, not comprehensive or exhaustive, and I'm only listing\nquestions that seem to me to bear directly on the uberquestion of\nidentity ... I do not believe most of the questions here have\nreceived definitive answers, and indeed wonder if Wolfe intends\nthem to _have_ such answers; but it seems clear to me that, at the\nvery least, he intends his readers to _think_ about these questions.\n\n5HC:\n----\no The name and identity of Number Five\no The identity and relationship of Number Five's \"brother\"\n David and \"aunt\" Jeannine to himself and the Wolfe line,\n and Jeannine's identity as Aubrey Veil\no The identity and nature of \"John V. Marsch\" and/or \"Victor\"\no Who is human? Who is an abo? Who is a clone? Are abos\n descended from Atlanteans? Are the Vanished People different\n from abos? What about Naomi?\no Why are all boy-children \"John?\"\no Are John and John two people or one?\n\nBotNS/UotNS:\n------------\no Do one's memories compose one's identity? (Does a\n memorious person like Severian have a stronger or a\n weaker sense of self than \"normal\" people?)\no Is a resurrected person the same person as the person\n who died?\no In what sense is an aquastor the person it presents?\no Who are Severian's parents? How and how much does one's\n parentage/ancestry determinewho one is? (nature/nurture)\no What does the addition of artifical parts do to a human's\n identity (Jolenta, Baldanders)?\no Does a created person (Jonah, Dr. Talos, etc.) have a\no What does the use of the analeptic alzabo do to one's\n identity? \"personal\" identity, or is it a thing?\no Does the alzabo itself have a personal identity? Is this\n separate from the identities of the people it consumes? Do\n they continue to have separate identities? (\"My name is\n Legion...\")\no When a timewalker crosses his own path, who is who and why?\no Is this story set in our future, our past, or neither of the\n above, and what difference does it make?\no How many Severians are there, and are they the same person\n or not? (Decide for yourself whether or not to include\n Apu-Punchau...)\n\nBotLS/BotSS:\n------------\no Is Pas Typhon or just a representation of him? (What about\n that other head? Piaton?) Is he the same person after he\n is killed and reassembled? And how about Pas-Silk?\no What happens to the identity of a possessed person? Of the\n possessor? Is this different in the case of Mucor's\n possession (which appears to have a different fundamental\n mechanism, in that she does not appear to enter through\n the eyes)?\no Who is the Narrator and when is he whom and why?\no To what extent can an inhum?, a hus, or a chem be\n considered a person? What about a Neighbor? A night chough?\n A cataphract? A tree?\no Are the inhumi a sentient race? If not, are individual\n inhumi sentient beings?\no When a chem is rebuilt or reprogrammed is it the same\n person?\no Back to identity and memory -- to what extent is Marble\n also Rose? Do they integrate persons or \"just\" memories,\n or is there a difference?\no Whatever happened to minds/souls/whatever of the chems the\n Lesser Primates possessed?\no Who was Potto(?) when he found his body had died?\no If a demon (or a \"god\") pretending to be a god becomes\n (an aspect of) that god, is their identity merged or\n dissolved into the god?\no More about parentage -- Silk's (he seems to have four\n parents), Chen's, Orpine's, etc.\no If Blue is/isn't Ushas, how can/could we know?\n\n\"Soldier\" books:\n----------------\n[I haven't read these many times, or in quite a while, so\nI can't really say much about them, but...]\no Does Latro have an identity at all? Does he construct\n a new one every time he reads his scrolls? If he failed\n to read them, would he be someone else? Nobody at all?\n\nEtc., etc., etc. Perhaps this could form the beginning of an\norganized approach to these questions, especially if others\nchime in with more questions for the list ... I'd be particularly\ncurious to see questions from the stand-alone novels and\nshort stories. (I don't imagine we'd have much trouble coming\nup with a list for PEACE, for example.) Note however, that a\nquestion that simply seeks to put a name on a mysterious figure,\nor determinme whether two figures far apart are \"the same person,\"\nis _not_ likely to be a candidate for this list ... those are\npuzzles, not mysteries." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] } ] }