{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3601", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3601, "subject": "Quetzal and Noah's Ark", "messages": 8, "voices": 6, "first": "2002-11-24T20:56:00+00:00", "last": "2002-11-30T04:11:48+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-24T20:56:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Quetzal and Noah's Ark", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi everyone,\n\nAll this discussion about Quetzal and his place on the Whorl got me digging\naround on Google and, while I didn't find quite what I was looking for\n(mythic references to a stowaway snake) I found some things far more\ninteresting. I'm not sure how relevant they are but they are certainly\ninteresting. Here's a sample:\n\n\"THE RESTORATION UNDERWAY: EVIDENCE OF CHAOS\n Legends of Central America subsequently refer to Noah as\nQuetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent that sailed off into the East where the\nrising sun ate him up. That is, as the sun arose Noah's Ark disappeared\nover the eastern horizon without them, leaving the people behind in the\nmidst of earthquakes, tidal waves, and chaos as the earth continued to\nconvulse and ocean bottoms sank to swallow up the flood waters. The\nrestoration was now indeed underway.\n\n Note: Noah had absolutely no control over his great raft of a\ncity. Therefore, when a portion of the Atlantic Ocean bottom, for example,\nsank, the waves and currents created easily sucked Noah's great raft along\nEastward like a cork in a stream. However, those left behind in the\nAmericas knew that Noah had a way with GOD; so, they blamed Noah for leaving\nwithout them. Thus, the name Quetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent. \"\n\nThis is from\nwww.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/7845/BRIANSANNES/mountararat.html It's a\nMormon site and I don't have much use for Mormon biblical scholarship but it\ndoesn't seem like dubious scholarship ever stopped Wolfe from exploring an\ninteresting/entertaining idea.\n\nThis next site is interesting for it's relevance to Crush's Quetzal/Dionysus\ntheory. Not only does it tie these two together but it also ties them both\ninto Noah and Hindu mythology. What?! It's\nwww.viewzone.com/noah.story.html\n\nThe third one I found of interest was\nwww.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/jblack/jbnahua2.html This one is cool because\nof the reference to the importance of maize. Curious, considering the\nimportance of corn in SS.\n\nI found all of these by entering \"Noah's ark\" and \"Quetzal\" or\n\"Quetzalcoatl\" in the search engine and there are tons more pages which I\ndon't have the time or inclination to sift through. But have fun.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-11-25T01:40:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal and Noah's Ark", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don:\n\nThanks very much for those sites. I couldn't reach the first one, but found\nthe second fascinating (Noah and Hindu mythology) and also remarkably well\nwritten (considering the norm on the web). Third (maize) also interesting.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2002-11-25T03:06:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal and Noah's Ark", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don:\n\nThanks very much for those sites. I couldn't reach the first one, but found\nthe second fascinating (Noah and Hindu mythology) and also remarkably well\nwritten (considering the norm on the web). Third (maize) also interesting.\n\n-alga" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The correct URL is:\n\nhttp://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/7845/BRIANSANNEX/mountararat.html\n\n(This URL also points to the same page:\n\nhttp://www.geocities.com/brianshouse/BRIANSANNEX/mountararat.html)\n\nThis is the one that was actually given:\n\nwww.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/7845/BRIANSANNES/mountararat.html\n\nA request to everyone who posts a URL. Please copy and paste it from \nyour browser to the email message, if at all possible, to avoid typos \nlike this. And please include the entire URL with the http:// prefix. \nMany email clients will make a complete URL into a clickable link, \nbut it doesn't work (at least in mine) unless the URL is complete." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-11-25T15:53:30+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Quetzal and Noah's Ark", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very nice find, Don! Particularly (as one would suppose my reaction) the\nlink on Dyaus-Nahusha. Personally, I would never have imagined a linkage\nbetween Quetzalcoatl's little raft and Noah's ark, however, the flags for\nGenesis 6 were quite obvious in the various morphings of the word \"chem\" as\n\"shem\" and \"Ham\".\n\nOf course, from a certain interview (James Jordan's I think) we know that\nWolfe believes that the Old World and New World cultures are *directly*\nlinked.\n\nThis also (possibly) clears up a nagging question for me as to why Wolfe\nchose to embody Quetzalcoatl and Dionysus in a single character. I had\nfinally decided it was because of the \"horned\" asps of Egypt but that seemed\ntenuous even for me. ;-)\n\nHowever, the graphic of Quetzalcoatl on his raft at\nwww.viewzone.com/noah.story.html (on a raft with two snakes) only stirs up\nanother frustrating question - it has always seemed to me there ought to be\n*two* serpents on the Whorl (two serpents on the Sun disk of Thebes, on the\nalchemist's Tau Cross, given by Athor to Ranpo in the Egyptian drawing that\nincludes the god Chem, etc.).\n\nBut thanks (grrr) to Roy's excoriating (excruciating) picking apart of my\ntextual reading, I can no longer accept that Tussah is an inhume. Freed from\nthat misapprehension I have been able resolve several thematic puzzles on my\nmental shelf. Don's revelations continue the trend that builds the case\nagainst two serpents on the Whorl for after all there is only one Noah, one\nDionysus, one serpent in the Garden.\n\nSo, I don't know. Thematically, there is less and less need for two serpents\nbut the symbolic penchant ever increases. Very frustrating.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-11-25T23:46:11+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Quetzal and Noah's Ark", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "God said to Noah, \"Build me an ark.\"\n Typhon said to Quetzal, \"build me an ark.\" I don't think so. No \nreason to think Quetzal was on location.\n So how's this? Typhon took over Piaton and directed him to build \nan ark. God wanted a human being, made of flesh, to build the Ark. Typhon \nneeded a body so that he/he could build his ark.\n Neat, but I don't think so. The analogy breaks down too quickly.\n Typhon is both God and Noah. Noah went on the ark with his wife \nand sons and their wives. Typhon goes on his ark as Pas, with with and \nfamily. That's the parallel and analogy.\n We'll get farther recognizing that Noah's Ark is a traditional \nsymbol of the Church, a place where the whole old creation is preserved for \na new creation to come. Common enough, and surely part of Wolfe's \nbackground (unlike some weird Mormon website). Starcrosser should be \ncompared and contrasted with the Ship that carried Severian to Yesod. \nEverything \"spiritual\" about Typhon's ark is an inversion, a negative \nimage, of the Church, since idolatry is a main theme, really THE main \ntheme, of the Long Sun quartet. Starcrosser is an anti-ark that the \nOutsider decides to invade and save because of His love for human beings. \nThe Outsider converts the Plan of Pas into HIS plan, and subverts the \n\"plan\" of Quetzal into His own larger Plan. Typhon is just an unwitting \npawn in the Outsider's huge purpose -- just as Satan is just a pawn in the \npurpose of the Biblical God.\n That's the Big Picture, folks.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-27T03:33:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal and Noah's Ark", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 11/25/02 5:46 PM, James Jordan at jbjordan4 at cox.net wrote:\nStarcrosser is an anti-ark that the\nOutsider decides to invade and save because of His love for human beings.\nThe Outsider converts the Plan of Pas into HIS plan, and subverts the\n\"plan\" of Quetzal into His own larger Plan. Typhon is just an unwitting\npawn in the Outsider's huge purpose" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that is? If the Outsider loves human beings so much, why doesn't He\nstop the Hierogrammates from killing almost all of them? And if He's\nconcerned with the salvation of the people on the Whorl, why doesn't He tell\nSilk to spread the Good News of His uniqueness and omnipotence, rather than\ntelling him to \"save the manteion\"? I'm not trying to be facetious, but it\ndoes seem that His ways in LS/SS are particularly mysterious.\n\nNo doubt everything that happens in the books is ultimately part of the\nOutsider's plan. But the same would be true if Silk had never been\nenlightened, or if the colonists had been left to rot aboard the Whorl\nforever. So it's not clear to me how \"the Outsider's plan\" can be used as a\ntouchstone for interpreting the books.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-11-27T16:53:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal and Noah's Ark", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:33 PM 11/26/2002, you wrote:\non 11/25/02 5:46 PM, James Jordan at jbjordan4 at cox.net wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Starcrosser is an anti-ark that the\nOutsider decides to invade and save because of His love for human beings.\nThe Outsider converts the Plan of Pas into HIS plan, and subverts the\n\"plan\" of Quetzal into His own larger Plan. Typhon is just an unwitting\npawn in the Outsider's huge purpose" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And that is? If the Outsider loves human beings so much, why doesn't He\nstop the Hierogrammates from killing almost all of them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The Increate's love for humanity is \"tough love.\" Hard times and \ndeath are part of how He loves humanity and brings humanity to maturity. \nThat's not modern \"love\" but it is basic to a Christian understanding of \n\"love.\" Whether you agree or not, that's going to be Wolfe's perspective." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " And if He's\nconcerned with the salvation of the people on the Whorl, why doesn't He tell\nSilk to spread the Good News of His uniqueness and omnipotence, rather than\ntelling him to \"save the manteion\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Saving the manteion is a metonomy, part for the whole. And of \ncourse, modern Christian novelists usually write about salvation obliquely \nand symbolically, not in an outright fashion in the way earlier writers did \n-- and Wolfe is clearly in the modern category here.\n Consider that Horn's \"Book of Silk,\" which has the contour of the \ngospel narrative + the book of Acts + at the end the book of Revelation, \ndoes indeed show the deeper meaning of what \"saving the manteion\" entails. \nAnd, saving this particular people of Viron (=Israel) becomes a \"gospel\" to \nall the settlers on Blue (and Green eventually). \"Saving the manteion\" \nexpands to saving the people physically from the dying Whorl before it \ndescends into hellish darkness and then expands to spiritual salvation \nthrough the \"Book of Silk\" as its readers learn who the real God is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I'm not trying to be facetious, but it\ndoes seem that His ways in LS/SS are particularly mysterious." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Granted!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No doubt everything that happens in the books is ultimately part of the\nOutsider's plan. But the same would be true if Silk had never been\nenlightened, or if the colonists had been left to rot aboard the Whorl\nforever. So it's not clear to me how \"the Outsider's plan\" can be used as a\ntouchstone for interpreting the books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Maybe not. But it seems to me that the whole notion of \"plan\" is \nbasic to the books. A plan by a pseudo-god (Pas) implies a greater plan by \nthe True God. Our gradual discovery of what the Plan of Pas is implies that \nwe are also to think about this Greater Plan also. From page 1 in LS, the \nOutsider is a \"player\" in the narrative, doing something specific in the \nnarrative (though behind the scenes, as the Ruler says in \"Westwind\"). We \nare invited to consider that specific plan.\n That's my reasoning, sound or not!\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--Adam\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-30T04:11:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal and Noah's Ark", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:53:25 -0600 James Jordan wrote:\n The Increate's love for humanity is\n\"tough love.\" Hard times and \ndeath are part of how He loves humanity and\nbrings humanity to maturity. \nThat's not modern \"love\" but it is basic to a\nChristian understanding of \n\"love.\" Whether you agree or not, that's going\nto be Wolfe's perspective." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather than argue religion, I'll stick to the books and ask why, if the\nOutsider's \"love\" for humanity is compatible with letting most of the people\non Urth die, He doesn't also let the people on the Whorl die. What's so\nspecial about them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Consider that Horn's \"Book of Silk,\"\nwhich has the contour of the \ngospel narrative + the book of Acts + at the\nend the book of Revelation, \ndoes indeed show the deeper meaning of what\n\"saving the manteion\" entails. \nAnd, saving this particular people of Viron\n(=Israel) becomes a \"gospel\" to \nall the settlers on Blue (and Green\neventually). \"Saving the manteion\" \nexpands to saving the people physically from\nthe dying Whorl before it \ndescends into hellish darkness and then expands\nto spiritual salvation \nthrough the \"Book of Silk\" as its readers learn\nwho the real God is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see that anybody has been spiritually saved by the end of the Short\nSun books, except perhaps Silk. Silk himself has only \"graduated\" to\nmonotheism, which alone is not sufficient for salvation according to Catholic\nteaching, afaik. And Horn, who wrote the \"Book of Silk,\" hasn't even gotten\nthat far by the start of \"Blue\": he still thinks that the \"gods\" of Mainframe\nare gods of the same order as the Outsider, though he thinks the Outsider has\nbeen underemphasized. And while some of the colonists have begun to worship\nSilk, there are no indications of an increase in Outsider-worship as a result\nof reading the Book of Silk, iirc. Of course, this might all be part of a\nlong-term plan on the Outsider's part to bring the colonists' descendants to\nsalvation, but there's no evidence for this in the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Maybe not. But it seems to me that the\nwhole notion of \"plan\" is \nbasic to the books. A plan by a pseudo-god\n(Pas) implies a greater plan by \nthe True God. Our gradual discovery of what the\nPlan of Pas is implies that \nwe are also to think about this Greater Plan\nalso. From page 1 in LS, the \nOutsider is a \"player\" in the narrative, doing\nsomething specific in the \nnarrative (though behind the scenes, as the\nRuler says in \"Westwind\"). We \nare invited to consider that specific plan.\n That's my reasoning, sound or not!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough, but on the evidence of the books themselves it's very hard to see\nwhat the Outsider's plan is. Of course, Wolfe's point may be precisely that\nthe Outsider's plans are incomprehensible to humans.\n\nAfter writing the above, it occurred to me that it might be argued that the\nOutsider's plan is to save the inhumi through the colonists. I would\ndisagree, though. In my reading of the books, the inhumi have no souls of\ntheir own; the intelligent inhumi, as beasts with human souls, are (in Wolfe's\neyes) monstrous parodies of humanity, and for them to devolve back to beastdom\nwould be best for them as well as for the colonists. Of course, not everyone\nwill agree with this reading, but in any case I see no indication by the end\nof RttW that the inhumi are on the road to salvation (even a long and winding\none).\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }