Subject: (urth) Quetzal and Noah's Ark

From: Don Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:56:00 +0000

Hi everyone,

All this discussion about Quetzal and his place on the Whorl got me digging
around on Google and, while I didn't find quite what I was looking for
(mythic references to a stowaway snake) I found some things far more
interesting.  I'm not sure how relevant they are but they are certainly
interesting.  Here's a sample:

"THE RESTORATION UNDERWAY:  EVIDENCE OF CHAOS
          Legends of Central America subsequently refer to Noah as
Quetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent that sailed off into the East where the
rising sun ate him up.   That is, as the sun arose Noah's Ark disappeared
over the eastern horizon without them, leaving the people behind in the
midst of earthquakes, tidal waves, and chaos as the earth continued to
convulse and ocean bottoms sank to swallow up the flood waters.   The
restoration was now indeed underway.

          Note:  Noah had absolutely no control over his great raft of a
city.   Therefore, when a portion of the Atlantic Ocean bottom, for example,
sank, the waves and currents created easily sucked Noah's great raft along
Eastward like a cork in a stream.   However, those left behind in the
Americas knew that Noah had a way with GOD; so, they blamed Noah for leaving
without them.   Thus, the name Quetzalcoatl, the feathered serpent. "

This is from
www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/7845/BRIANSANNES/mountararat.html  It's a
Mormon site and I don't have much use for Mormon biblical scholarship but it
doesn't seem like dubious scholarship ever stopped Wolfe from exploring an
interesting/entertaining idea.

This next site is interesting for it's relevance to Crush's Quetzal/Dionysus
theory.  Not only does it tie these two together but it also ties them both
into Noah and Hindu mythology.  What?!  It's
www.viewzone.com/noah.story.html

The third one I found of interest was
www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/jblack/jbnahua2.html This one is cool because
of the reference to the importance of maize.  Curious, considering the
importance of corn in SS.

I found all of these by entering "Noah's ark" and "Quetzal" or
"Quetzalcoatl" in the search engine and there are tons more pages which I
don't have the time or inclination to sift through.  But have fun.

Don

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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 01:40:55 +0000

Thanks very much for those sites. I couldn't reach the first one, but found
the second fascinating (Noah and Hindu mythology) and also remarkably well
written (considering the norm on the web). Third (maize) also interesting.

-alga

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From: William Ansley <wansley at warwick.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:06:22 +0000

>written (considering the norm on the web). Third (maize) also interesting.

The correct URL is:

http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/7845/BRIANSANNEX/mountararat.html

(This URL also points to the same page:

http://www.geocities.com/brianshouse/BRIANSANNEX/mountararat.html)

This is the one that was actually given:

www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/7845/BRIANSANNES/mountararat.html

A request to everyone who posts a URL. Please copy and paste it from 
your browser to the email message, if at all possible, to avoid typos 
like this. And please include the entire URL with the http:// prefix. 
Many email clients will make a complete URL into a clickable link, 
but it doesn't work (at least in mine) unless the URL is complete.
-- 

William Ansley

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:53:30 +0000

Very nice find, Don! Particularly (as one would suppose my reaction) the
link on Dyaus-Nahusha. Personally, I would never have imagined a linkage
between Quetzalcoatl's little raft and Noah's ark, however, the flags for
Genesis 6 were quite obvious in the various morphings of the word "chem" as
"shem" and "Ham".

Of course, from a certain interview (James Jordan's I think) we know that
Wolfe believes that the Old World and New World cultures are *directly*
linked.

This also (possibly) clears up a nagging question for me as to why Wolfe
chose to embody Quetzalcoatl and Dionysus in a single character. I had
finally decided it was because of the "horned" asps of Egypt but that seemed
tenuous even for me. ;-)

However, the graphic of Quetzalcoatl on his raft at
www.viewzone.com/noah.story.html (on a raft with two snakes) only stirs up
another frustrating question - it has always seemed to me there ought to be
*two* serpents on the Whorl (two serpents on the Sun disk of Thebes, on the
alchemist's Tau Cross, given by Athor to Ranpo in the Egyptian drawing that
includes the god Chem, etc.).

But thanks (grrr) to Roy's excoriating (excruciating) picking apart of my
textual reading, I can no longer accept that Tussah is an inhume. Freed from
that misapprehension I have been able resolve several thematic puzzles on my
mental shelf. Don's revelations continue the trend that builds the case
against two serpents on the Whorl for after all there is only one Noah, one
Dionysus, one serpent in the Garden.

So, I don't know. Thematically, there is less and less need for two serpents
but the symbolic penchant ever increases.  Very frustrating.

-- Crush

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:46:11 +0000

God said to Noah, "Build me an ark."
         Typhon said to Quetzal, "build me an ark." I don't think so. No 
reason to think Quetzal was on location.
         So how's this? Typhon took over Piaton and directed him to build 
an ark. God wanted a human being, made of flesh, to build the Ark. Typhon 
needed a body so that he/he could build his ark.
         Neat, but I don't think so. The analogy breaks down too quickly.
         Typhon is both God and Noah. Noah went on the ark with his wife 
and sons and their wives. Typhon goes on his ark as Pas, with with and 
family. That's the parallel and analogy.
         We'll get farther recognizing that Noah's Ark is a traditional 
symbol of the Church, a place where the whole old creation is preserved for 
a new creation to come. Common enough, and surely part of Wolfe's 
background (unlike some weird Mormon website). Starcrosser should be 
compared and contrasted with the Ship that carried Severian to Yesod. 
Everything "spiritual" about Typhon's ark is an inversion, a negative 
image, of the Church, since idolatry is a main theme, really THE main 
theme, of the Long Sun quartet. Starcrosser is an anti-ark that the 
Outsider decides to invade and save because of His love for human beings. 
The Outsider converts the Plan of Pas into HIS plan, and subverts the 
"plan" of Quetzal into His own larger Plan. Typhon is just an unwitting 
pawn in the Outsider's huge purpose -- just as Satan is just a pawn in the 
purpose of the Biblical God.
         That's the Big Picture, folks.

Nutria

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 03:33:48 +0000

on 11/25/02 5:46 PM, James Jordan at jbjordan4 at cox.net wrote:

> Starcrosser is an anti-ark that the
> pawn in the Outsider's huge purpose

And that is?  If the Outsider loves human beings so much, why doesn't He
stop the Hierogrammates from killing almost all of them?  And if He's
concerned with the salvation of the people on the Whorl, why doesn't He tell
Silk to spread the Good News of His uniqueness and omnipotence, rather than
telling him to "save the manteion"?  I'm not trying to be facetious, but it
does seem that His ways in LS/SS are particularly mysterious.

No doubt everything that happens in the books is ultimately part of the
Outsider's plan.  But the same would be true if Silk had never been
enlightened, or if the colonists had been left to rot aboard the Whorl
forever.  So it's not clear to me how "the Outsider's plan" can be used as a
touchstone for interpreting the books.

--Adam

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:53:25 +0000

At 09:33 PM 11/26/2002, you wrote:
>stop the Hierogrammates from killing almost all of them?

         The Increate's love for humanity is "tough love." Hard times and 
death are part of how He loves humanity and brings humanity to maturity. 
That's not modern "love" but it is basic to a Christian understanding of 
"love." Whether you agree or not, that's going to be Wolfe's perspective.

>  And if He's
>telling him to "save the manteion"?

         Saving the manteion is a metonomy, part for the whole. And of 
course, modern Christian novelists usually write about salvation obliquely 
and symbolically, not in an outright fashion in the way earlier writers did 
-- and Wolfe is clearly in the modern category here.
         Consider that Horn's "Book of Silk," which has the contour of the 
gospel narrative + the book of Acts + at the end the book of Revelation, 
does indeed show the deeper meaning of what "saving the manteion" entails. 
And, saving this particular people of Viron (=Israel) becomes a "gospel" to 
all the settlers on Blue (and Green eventually). "Saving the manteion" 
expands to saving the people physically from the dying Whorl before it 
descends into hellish darkness and then expands to spiritual salvation 
through the "Book of Silk" as its readers learn who the real God is.

>   I'm not trying to be facetious, but it

         Granted!

>touchstone for interpreting the books.

         Maybe not. But it seems to me that the whole notion of "plan" is 
basic to the books. A plan by a pseudo-god (Pas) implies a greater plan by 
the True God. Our gradual discovery of what the Plan of Pas is implies that 
we are also to think about this Greater Plan also. From page 1 in LS, the 
Outsider is a "player" in the narrative, doing something specific in the 
narrative (though behind the scenes, as the Ruler says in "Westwind"). We 
are invited to consider that specific plan.
         That's my reasoning, sound or not!

Nutria

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 04:11:48 +0000

> to be Wolfe's perspective.

Rather than argue religion, I'll stick to the books and ask why, if the
Outsider's "love" for humanity is compatible with letting most of the people
on Urth die, He doesn't also let the people on the Whorl die.  What's so
special about them?

> through the "Book of Silk" as its readers learn

I don't see that anybody has been spiritually saved by the end of the Short
Sun books, except perhaps Silk.  Silk himself has only "graduated" to
monotheism, which alone is not sufficient for salvation according to Catholic
teaching, afaik.  And Horn, who wrote the "Book of Silk," hasn't even gotten
that far by the start of "Blue": he still thinks that the "gods" of Mainframe
are gods of the same order as the Outsider, though he thinks the Outsider has
been underemphasized.  And while some of the colonists have begun to worship
Silk, there are no indications of an increase in Outsider-worship as a result
of reading the Book of Silk, iirc.  Of course, this might all be part of a
long-term plan on the Outsider's part to bring the colonists' descendants to
salvation, but there's no evidence for this in the books.

>          That's my reasoning, sound or not!

Fair enough, but on the evidence of the books themselves it's very hard to see
what the Outsider's plan is.  Of course, Wolfe's point may be precisely that
the Outsider's plans are incomprehensible to humans.

After writing the above, it occurred to me that it might be argued that the
Outsider's plan is to save the inhumi through the colonists.  I would
disagree, though.  In my reading of the books, the inhumi have no souls of
their own; the intelligent inhumi, as beasts with human souls, are (in Wolfe's
eyes) monstrous parodies of humanity, and for them to devolve back to beastdom
would be best for them as well as for the colonists.  Of course, not everyone
will agree with this reading, but in any case I see no indication by the end
of RttW that the inhumi are on the road to salvation (even a long and winding
one).

--Adam

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