{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3602", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3602, "subject": "Free Live Free (2002 round table here/now) SPOILERS", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-11-25T06:02:57+00:00", "last": "2002-11-26T15:08:32+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-11-25T06:02:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Free Live Free (2002 round table here/now) SPOILERS", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well I've just reread FLF for the first time.\n\nI did like it better than the last time. The screwball comedy reminds me\nnow of old films I've seen since the first read: movies like \"Bringing Up\nBaby\" and \"Philadelphia Story.\" And yes, \"It's A Wonderful Life.\"\n\nI tried looking back through the archives to see what has been written\nabout FLF, but most of what I saw was mentioning FLF in passing. There was\none observation about the \"alloying\" nature of characters folded back into\nthemselves, and that seems quite relevant. I did not exhaustively read all\nthe messages -- what I did look at was exhausting enough.\n\nAdam Stephanides, several years ago, posted a few questions and it doesn't\nseem as if they were ever answered around here. I don't even recall what\nthey all were, but one had to do with appearance of Free/disappearance of\nWhitten, and I'll address that shortly.\n\nFirst, the ending. Big Ozzie and Little Ozzie are walking through the\nJanuary 1983 alleyway behind the partially demolished house. They pick\ntheir way through the debris -- through the window they can see the ruin,\nbut they open the door and enter a non-ruinous version of the kitchen, in\nwhich stand an alloyed (or improved) versions of Candy and Stubbs. Ozzie\nthinks about how Free had said he'd hidden the gizmo in a wall: the sly\npart seems to be that a doorway is in a wall, and in this case the door\nfrom Jan 1983 back porch leads to Summer (what year in past) kitchen. In\nmirror-fashion, the door from Jan 1983 kitchen leads to Summer (what year\nin past) back porch.\n\nThe back door is really two one-way time doors.\n\nMy question is what year is that Summer kitchen located in? It might be\n1982, which would then allow for Barnes, Stubbs, Garth, and the witch to be\n\"alloyed,\" or folded into their previous selves. If it were 1882, long\nbefore their natural life time, or even 1942, it does not seem like this\nwould be the case.\n\nIf it is 1982, then the events of the novel amount to a timeline that has\nbeen imploded and which only exists as a commonly shared dream among the\nnow-improved four characters. Plus Little Ozzie.\n\nBut this doesn't explain why Free says he is too old to use it. Then\nagain, he has advance knowledge of when he will be murdered and he isn't\none to interrupt the flow, so that by itself can answer a lot of questions.\n\nNext: High Country. The wooden Laputa flying fort, served by one B-17.\nEstablished in 1942, still there but seemingly abandoned in 1982. It\ncarries the gizmo (the \"big\" gizmo?) which allows time-travel to 1952:\nWhitten walks through the door, ends up on High Country (1952), gets\ninformation on fission, which he takes back to 1942 . . . or no, wait, the\nbig gizmo must take all of High Country with it, and the B-17, too?\nBecause the B-17 and its crew are from the 1940s.\n\nAs to Free/Whitten. Actually, Adam, this part is very much like John\nCrowley's \"Great Work of Time\" (1989) -- well no, not this part exactly,\nbut the whole \"crisis at time patrol: an insider is starting to mess things\nup--oops, that person is my future self!\" thing. Which may be an\noff-the-shelf trope for \"time travel organization\" type of stories, I'm not\nsure. (And no, I would certainly not guess that John Crowley had read\nFLF--I would bet money against it.)\n\nAnway, getting back to it: in FLF it is simply not possible to \"talk to\nyourself\" because when the more advanced version of a person appears in the\nlocal timestream, the other version implodes and folds into the intruder.\nWe might think of this as a \"conservation of soul\" or something like that!\n\nSo the first and clearest case we have: Whitten goes from 1942 to 1952,\ngets the info, and returns, but on his return he arrives three months\nbefore he left, and his May 1942 version seems to have imploded and folded\ninto his August 1942. He then goes along with repeating history for three\nmonths until he goes up to High Country (again), then does not go into time\ntravel but goes to Washington to give the info he had gotten months before.\n\nThings are different in the \"eclipses\" of the 1980s: for one, neither\n\"Buck\" nor \"Free\" are native to the 1980s, so it isn't as clear-cut a case\nas \"older Whitten displaces/absorbs younger Whitten.\" But that might still\nbe what happens (even though it doesn't seem like it).\n\nTime for a timeline (based on the US timeline but scrambled into Free's\nlinearity point of view):\n\nYEAR EVENTS\n1889 -- Samuel Benjamin Whitten born.\n\n1917 -- (age 28) Whitten in US Army, volunteers for pilot training.\n\n1918 -- (age 29) Whitten in France, March to Nov (war ends).\n\n1924 -- (age 35) daughter \"Kip\" Whitten born in Manila.\n\n1937 -- (age 48) Brig. Gen. S. B. \"Buck\" Whitten retires.\n\n1942 -- (age 53) July: Whitten joins OSS.\n Aug 18: Whitten goes to High Country, travels to 1952.\n1952 -- (age 53) Whitten gets fission info, returns to 1942.\n1942 -- (age 53) May 30: returns from time travel, lands at Langley Field;\n his May self has imploded/folded.\n June 2: from Langley Field to Buffalo.\n July (again): Whitten joins OSS.\n August 18 (again): But rather than time travel again, he\n reports at Washington with the info he got on the\n trip before.\n August 20: second time travel (into future) with team this\n time, carrying disassembled gizmo. To 1982?\n\n1982 -- (age 53) Nov 5: B-17 spotted marks arrival of Whitten and team.\n\n1983 -- (age 53?) Jan 14: disappearance of Whitten when Free returns.\n Jan 16: Free's ad.\n Jan 17: The four move in.\n Jan 18: The novel begins.\n Jan 19: Kip takes Free prisoner.\n Jan 21: Kip kills Free, Whitten reappears.\n Jan 22: Before dawn, Whitten disappears again; High Country\n interview of Whitten/Free (age 60 - 70) who has\n experienced years since he saw them take off hours\nago.\n Jan 24: Man in duffle coat deserts.\n\n1803 -- (age 60) Ben Free joins Lewis & Clark expedition.\n\n1807-18 (age 64-75) Free visits the house using the portable gizmo to leave the\n frontier and backdoor gizmo to return to the frontier.\n\n1819 -- (age 76) Free leaves the frontier for good . . . using the portable\n gizmo in a cave in Kentucky (?), he returns to the house.\n Then he retreives the portable gizmo on foot (in the \"house\n timeframe\"), and hides it in the wall of the house.\n\n1983 -- (age 76+) Jan 14: Free visits 1983 house, Whitten disappears.\n Jan 16: Free's ad.\n Jan 17: The four move in.\n Jan 18: The novel begins.\n Jan 19: Kip takes Free prisoner.\n Jan 21: Kip kills Free (Whitten reappears).\n\n==End Timeline==\n\nSo . . . what happens when Free is killed in 1983? Does he go to heaven or\nsome other sort of afterlife? Does he fold into the Free/Whitten version\nthat the four talk to on High Country? Or does Free actually morph into\nthe house, just as he seemed to be telling the witch that he would -- and\nhow he did that telekinesis with the roof shingle to impress her?\n\nThat is to say: does Free (age 76+) become the house that the four rebuilt\npeople live in? One of the unexpected Oz echoes here: there is the wizard\nof Oz, who is named Oz, and there is the country of Oz, which is called Oz.\n(Naturally Oz has four kingdoms, which links up with the four dwellers, but\nthat is another detail.)\n\nWhat years are the timeframe for the house? Seems to me that Free would\nknow/guess that there were certain safe zones he could visit without\ncausing disruptive implosions . . . say the years 1953 to 1981. And then\nthe fuzziness of the gizmo catches up and he overshoots into 1983 (rather\nlike the three month miss on the first trip). General Whitten disappears\nand all hell breaks loose.\n\nThat is enough for one post. Help me out, Roy!\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-11-26T06:08:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Free Live Free (2002 round table here/now) SPOILERS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\nBut this doesn't explain why Free says he is too old to use it. Then\nagain, he has advance knowledge of when he will be murdered and he isn't\none to interrupt the flow, so that by itself can answer a lot of questions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wasn't really prepared for this, but . . .\n\nI think all that Free meant was that he was literally too old and sick to\nderive any benefit from using the gizmo again; after all, that was why he\nleft the frontier for good in the first place. Any physical benefit to be\ngained from leaving from and returning to, roughly, the same time period (as\nwhen he looked and felt better the second time around in 1942), was limited.\nHe said that the early-model gizmo that sent him back from 1952 three months\nbefore he left \"couldn't be controlled with pinpoint accuracy then\". That\nimplies that subsequent refinements made use of the gizmo more precise. It\ncouldn't be used to 'cheat time', to keep himself forever young.\nPhysiologically, he aged more or less as any man would. He was ready to die\nwhen Kip killed him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Next: High Country. The wooden Laputa flying fort, served by one B-17.\nEstablished in 1942, still there but seemingly abandoned in 1982. It\ncarries the gizmo (the \"big\" gizmo?) which allows time-travel to 1952:\nWhitten walks through the door, ends up on High Country (1952), gets\ninformation on fission, which he takes back to 1942 . . . or no, wait, the\nbig gizmo must take all of High Country with it, and the B-17, too?\nBecause the B-17 and its crew are from the 1940s." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whitten's explanation is as clear as mud. On the one hand, it seems that the\n_High Country_ had been in one continuous flight for forty years (it\ncouldn't land!), otoh, it sometimes seems that both it and its tender plane\nare transported. The crew of the B-17 mentions that they are in the\n\"eighties\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1982 -- (age 53) Nov 5: B-17 spotted marks arrival of Whitten and team.\n\n1983 -- (age 53?) Jan 14: disappearance of Whitten when Free returns.\n Jan 16: Free's ad.\n Jan 17: The four move in.\n Jan 18: The novel begins.\n Jan 19: Kip takes Free prisoner.\n Jan 21: Kip kills Free, Whitten reappears.\n Jan 22: Before dawn, Whitten disappears again; High\nCountry\n interview of Whitten/Free (age 60 - 70) who has\n experienced years since he saw them take off hours\nago.\n Jan 24: Man in duffle coat deserts.\n\n1803 -- (age 60) Ben Free joins Lewis & Clark expedition." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is where the inevitable time paradoxes pop up. When Whitten, with Kip\nand others, went from Aug., 1942 to Nov., 1982, they set up a base at the\nairport. Two months later, old Free shows up and Whitten disappears for\nseven days. Where was he? When Free is killed, Whitten returns, age 53.\nThree days after that, Whitten deserts the time project, presumably for the\nfrontier. The next accounting we have of him is in 1803, age 60. Where was\nhe for seven years?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-26T15:08:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Free Live Free (2002 round table here/now) SPOILERS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 11/25/02 12:02 AM, Michael Andre-Driussi at mantis at siriusfiction.com\nwrote:\nAdam Stephanides, several years ago, posted a few questions and it doesn't\nseem as if they were ever answered around here. I don't even recall what\nthey all were, but one had to do with appearance of Free/disappearance of\nWhitten, and I'll address that shortly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here are my questions, from vol. 4 of the archives:\n\n1) Why are there two Whittens (in addition to \"Ben Free\")\nin 1983? The younger Whitten (the man in the duffle coat)\nis there on his second trip with the gizmo for the government.\nWhat is the older Whitten doing there?\n\n2) When \"Ben Free\" reappears on January 14, 1983, where did\nhe come from? He didn't come from the frontier, because he\nleft the frontier for the last time before he hid the gizmo\nin the wall, and that was presumably before January 14, 1983.\n\n3) A minor point, but in Chapter 52 the witch tells the others\nthat \"Today I defrauded a certain one, the namesake of one who\npossesses much authority, below.\" Is there a demon named\nMcAlister? Or is there some joke regarding McAlister's first\nname (which I don't remember ever being stated) which I missed?\nOr did she defraud somebody else that day?\n\nNobody responded to them, but whether that was because nobody knew the\nanswers or because nobody cared I don't know.\n\nIt's been several years since I last read the book, and I have almost no\nrecollection of Whitten/Free's peregrinations, which were never that clear\nto me in the first place. (I don't even remember there being two Whittens.)\nSo I have no idea to what extent your timeline answers my first two\nquestions. You seem to be saying that Free did come from the frontier when\nhe reappeared on Jan. 14, 1983; again, I don't recall now why I thought he\ndidn't.\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }