{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3603", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3603, "subject": "The Book of Typhon Part One - Severian's ancestry", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-11-25T07:13:38+00:00", "last": "2002-11-25T08:53:10+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-25T07:13:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Book of Typhon Part One - Severian's ancestry", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Howdy y'all,\n\nA few posts back, someone wrote that they wished there was a Book of Typhon\nand a Book of Piaton. Well, I don't know about the second but I'm beginning\nto believe that the entire Sun Cycle might be the first. I wonder if Typhon\n(excluding Pas) is not the best concealed major character in fiction ever.\nAnd while my reading of King Jesus pointed me in this direction (rightly or\nwrongly), I don't think it's necessary at all to my speculations. On what?\nSeverian's ancestry, to start.\n Let me start by saying flat out that I don't believe that Dorcas is\nSeverian's grandmother or that Ouen is his father. To me, that is such a\nbig red herring that we could all eat fish taco's for a month. It's always\nbothered me and I'll state the simple reason why. Incest. I cannot believe\nthat Wolfe would have his main character commit incest, knowingly or\nunknowingly, and especially without any good reason. And there is no good\nreason (unless you want to establish Severian as Antichrist, which I don't\nbelieve) for Severian to sleep with his grandmother. If she was his mother,\nthere's the Oedipus parallel. If his sister, there's the marriage of\nPharaoh and his Sister (and other parallels I can't think of). If his\ndaughter, there's the story of Noah. If someone can point out a\nmytho-symbolic instance of grandson-grandmother incest then I will rethink\nthis. Otherwise I will never be convinced.\n Especially when there are two better alternatives which fit much more\nsnugly into Severian's mythos. There is the obvious Jesus parallel where\nJoseph/Ouen is the \"father\" (though God is the real father) and\nMary/Katharine (which means \"pure\") is the virgin/pelerine mother. There is\nalso the Arthurian parallel where Sir Hector is Arthur's \"father\" through\nthe intervention of Merlin/Inire? and the real father is Uther the King\n(Monarch). Either fit better than the Dorcas and Ouen alternative.\n Before I get too deep into this, let me say that I have a lot of puzzle\npieces and a fair amount of them fit together, but I don't have a\ncomprehensive picture and I'm confused by some things. Mainly I'm confused\nby the relationship between Ymar and Severian, and because of this I'm\nunable to make the precise connection I'd like between either Ymar and\nTyphon or Severian and Typhon. That said, I'm sure there is a strong\nfamilial connection between the three and I'm equally sure that the Sun\nCycle is also a very complex dynastic novel in addition to it's other mind\nboggling functions. What I'm saying is any help would be appreciated.\n There are four things that tie Ymar to Severian strongly in my mind.\nThe first is that they are both sheltered by the Guild. The second is that\nthey both go on to be Autarch and travel to Yesod. Third is the anecdote\nabout Ymar following the dog (which I think is the real point of Severian's\nrelating it, in spite of his elaborate attempt to explicate it's meaning),\nand the fourth is in Ymar's title: the Almost Just. As in James the Just,\nbrother of Jesus. I also discovered that ymar is supposedly Hebrew for ox,\nthough I have no idea what relevance that has.\n One or both of them is Typhon's son. My reasoning for this is in the\nTale of a Boy Called Frog. In this tale, Spring Wind/typhoon/Typhon fathers\ntwin sons with a princess whose father had given her over to an order of\nvirgin priestesses (hmmm?). I would add that Spring Wind is the son of\nEarly Summer and the juice of a red flower (fire? a rose? the old sun?) \"No,\nI was not born as I am, or born at all, as you meant it.\" The sons are\nset adrift on a stream (the brook madregot?) One of the sons is taken in by\nwolves and sheltered by the Black Killer (the Guild?) and goes on to rule.\n\"Here is the red flower. In his name I rule.\" Severian's coat of arms\ncontains the red flower, as does the mausoleum of his boyhood. This implies\nsome sort of dynastic tie between the two. And Severian's memorial stone in\n\"Urth\" says \"by Right the First Man of Urth\" By right of what? No one\nknows whether he's the one to bring the New Sun. Maybe it's by right of\nblood, by his tie to the Monarch.\nMy problem is, is this Severian the story is talking about or is it Ymar?\nAre they brothers? Are they the same person? Is one a clone of the other?\nIf Severian is this son then it seems likely that Katharine and Kypris are\none and the same. If Ymar is the son then Kypris is surely his mother. My\npet theory is that Ymar is Typhon's son and Severian is his (Ymar's) clone.\nThis allows Katharine to give a virgin birth and allows Severian to be his\nown father. This dynastic theory also meshes nicely with Greek mythology,\nwhich as Peter Green states in his introduction to Apollonius of Rhodes\nArgonautica (univ. of california press, p.22) \". . . has as background a\ncomplex genealogical web of intertwined family relationships. . .\"\n Whatever the answer, the one thing I am absolutely positive of is that\nDorcas is in no way an immediate member of Severian's family. Which brings\nanother question. Does he know his ancestry? (I think yes. Valeria most\nlikely told him.) If he does, why is he hiding it?\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Hubert Rogers", "address": "hubert at ntlworld.com" }, "date": "2002-11-25T08:53:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Book of Typhon Part One - Severian's ancestry", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a really interesting alternative to the Dorcas theory which seems\nfar to simple and without any substantial implications to me. I especially\nlike the \"Tale of a boy called Frog\" parallels, which I don't think can be\nmere coincidence.\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Whatever the answer, the one thing I am absolutely positive of is that\nDorcas is in no way an immediate member of Severian's family. Which\nbrings\nanother question. Does he know his ancestry? (I think yes. Valeria most\nlikely told him.) If he does, why is he hiding it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps he's hiding it because he realised that he had killed his own\nfather. That might make him ashamed enough not to mention it directly but\ninstead provide us with the clues to work it out." } ] } ] }