{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3605", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3605, "subject": "Quetzal On Urth?", "messages": 16, "voices": 8, "first": "2002-11-25T17:15:48+00:00", "last": "2002-11-28T07:38:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-11-25T17:15:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Howdy everyone.\n\nI have some thoughts that I'd like to share regarding when Quetzal came \non board the Whorl, especially in regard to how Gene Wolfe seems to \napproach his writing.\n\nLast week, Crush posited the following:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... even if Typhon did not know the target\nplanets were full of blood-sucking monsters\n(and I never imagined he did) it does not mean\nhe wasn't manipulated by Quetzal on Urth. And\nbased on Quetzal's statements in LS3:1 (Slaves\nof Scylla) that still seems probable to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Further, Don Doggett added the following:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The thirty years bits all refer to things that\nhave happened inside the Whorl and they all\nhinge on one idea, namely that Quetzal somehow\nentered the Whorl from Green or Blue thirty\nyears ago. An easy way around that is to say\nthat Quetzal has been on the Whorl from the\nstart. Nowhere, to the best of my knowledge, is\nthe lifespan of an Inhumu given in the text.\nFor goodness sake, Jahlee was buried underground\nfor months without nourishment . . ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess the idea of Quetzal being on board the Whorl from the beginning \nbugs me more than it should. There are other theories floating around \nthat I don't agree with but that I can stomach because they at least \nseem to be within the realm of possibility because their positions can \nbe argued from the *text*. Examples of such theories include the Blue = \nUshas theory, and the theory that it was Severian who appeared to Horn \nin the pit. \n\nBut the Quetzal-on-board-from-the-beginning theory is different. \n\nI see how the text doesn't refute such a possibility -- and I've looked \nfor something to refute it with -- but that's not the same thing as \nsupport. As much as I would like to avoid extra-textual support for my \nideas, I'm going to offer as back-door evidence the following quote from \nthe Nick Gevers interview with Gene Wolfe ( \nhttp://www.sfsite.com/03b/gw124.htm ):\n\n--------------------\nQ: Why did you choose in Short Sun to have your characters cross over \ninto the milieu of New Sun? In particular, do the meetings of Horn/Silk \nand Severian have a decisive impact on the destinies of both?\n\nA: Because the books would have been lame if they had not. Once you \nsee that Pas is or was Typhon, and know the Rajan can travel by astral \nprojection, he's got to do that. There's a wonderful bit in the Roger \nRabbit movie nobody seems to get. Roger goes around with handcuffs on \nhis wrists for half an hour. Then he pulls one hand out of the cuffs \nand does something with it, and sticks it back in. Bob says, \"You mean \nto tell me you could get out of those whenever you wanted to?\" And \nRoger says, \"No, only when it's funny.\" That is a profound expression \nof the the law that governs all writers and performers. The audience \ndoesn't have to think about that, but writers are bound by it. If \nthere's a gun on the wall in Act I, it must be fired before the end of \nthe play. Etc.\n--------------------\n\nOK. Think about this. If Quetzal or other inhumi had been on Urth \ninfluencing Typhon or other government officials, I think Gene Wolfe \nwould have let us know. More than that, according to the above quote, I \nthink he would have felt bound -- at least artistically but perhaps \nmorally as well -- to let something of such a relationship be seen. In \nother words, if the inhumi can travel to Urth (as has been suggested of \nQuetzal) then they've *got* to do that. We would hear stories of them \non Urth, see one flying in the distance, observe people who don't eat, \ncan't run, and lick their chops when someone mentions blood. Something. \n Some indication. But there's nothing. No indication whatsoever that \nany of the inhumi have ever been on Urth. (The SS astral-projections \ndon't count because, for one, they're not physically there and for two, \nthey're not inhumi when they're there -- they're fully and completely \nhuman.)\n\nFurther, if it's only one single inhumu (Quetzal) that made it to Urth, \nhow did he get there and why can't others come too? He has to have \nbeen there physically -- not astrally. That is, he had to have traveled \nthere on some kind of ship. So who built and launched such a ship and \nwhere is it now? If Quetzal was slick enough to influence Typhon about \nwhere to point the Whorl, surely he would would have been slick enough \nto redirect the hypothetical Urth-bound ship to Green (with it's \n\"cargo\") thereby avoiding the need to go to Urth at all.\n\nI feel like I'm ranting, and I apologize. I just can't see any textual \nsupport (which again is not the same as the lack of refutation) for the \nidea that any inhumi ever visited Urth. Is there any?\n\nCharles" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-11-25T17:39:18+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Charles Reed inquires:\nI just can't see any textual support (which again is not the same as the\nlack of refutation) for the idea that any inhumi ever visited Urth. Is\nthere any?\n\nI haven't finished the BotSS yet, so someone may offer textual evidence\nshoots my theories completely full of hole. The fact is that I've yet to see\nany textual evidence for how or when Quetzal got on the Whorl. There is (I\nbelieve) thematic evidence however to which I've already referred:\nhttp://gene-wolfe.tripod.com/midas.htm (note the http? Mr. Ansely?)\n\nIn the above referred story we have the answers to a couple unresolved\nquestions:\n1. How long do inhumi live? Very long.\n2. How did Quetzal get on the Whorl? It was Quetzal who instigated the Whorl\nproject.\n\nNow as to how he arrived at Urth that is also per speculation. I presume he\nhitched a ride with a ship that visited Green. He fed on the crew on the way\nto Urth and acquired technological knowledge which he shared with Typhon to\nget himself back.\n\nIf one chooses to associate Quetzal with Noah, the thematic tendency\nincreases for the Whorl to be (in a sense) Quetzal's ship.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cilluff1 at optonline.net", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2002-11-25T18:02:17+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Charles wrote:\n\n<>\n\nLet me start by saying that I agree with your points, and generally don't\nthink the inhumi were on Urth. But just to put forth one possible textual\nreference, when I first starting reading Blue the inhumi reminded me of the\nbloodbats that bite Jolenta and Severian. Perhaps these were the\npre-evolved inhumi? Jolenta's reaction to the bite were reminiscent of the\nchild who was bitten that Silk attended to (the name slips my mind).\n\n- Joe" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "cilluff1 at optonline.net", "address": "cilluff1 at optonline.net" }, "date": "2002-11-25T18:10:59+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One more piece of textual evidence is Quetzal's knowledge of Allah (or Ah\nLah). True, I'm working backward from this, but he seems to know a lot\nabout an Urth deity who is not worshipped on the Whorl. Of course, I would\nrefute this argument by noting that apparently Remora knows about Allah,\ntoo, and he has never been on Urth.\n\nOriginal Message:\n-----------------\nFrom: cilluff1 at optonline.net cilluff1 at optonline.net\nDate: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:02:17 -0500\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: RE: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?\n\n\nCharles wrote:\n\n<>\n\nLet me start by saying that I agree with your points, and generally don't\nthink the inhumi were on Urth. But just to put forth one possible textual\nreference, when I first starting reading Blue the inhumi reminded me of the\nbloodbats that bite Jolenta and Severian. Perhaps these were the\npre-evolved inhumi? Jolenta's reaction to the bite were reminiscent of the\nchild who was bitten that Silk attended to (the name slips my mind).\n\n- Joe" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-11-25T18:02:51+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 25/11/2002 18:02:17 cilluff1 wrote:\nother words, if the inhumi can travel to Urth (as has been suggested\nof >\nQuetzal) then they've *got* to do that. We would hear stories of\nthem >\non Urth, see one flying in the distance, observe people who don't eat, \ncan't run, and lick their chops when someone mentions blood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something.> " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some indication. But there's nothing. No indication whatsoever\nthat> \nany of the inhumi have ever been on Urth.>>" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dislike the inhumi on earth theory. Dislike it a great deal.\n\nHowever there is no necesity for inhumi to travel to earth by their own\nmeans. Think apports, ships and mirrors.\n\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-11-25T18:44:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "cilluff1 at optonline.net wrote:\nCharles wrote:\n\n>\n\nLet me start by saying that I agree with your points, and generally don't\nthink the inhumi were on Urth. But just to put forth one possible textual\nreference, when I first starting reading Blue the inhumi reminded me of the\nbloodbats that bite Jolenta and Severian. Perhaps these were the\npre-evolved inhumi? Jolenta's reaction to the bite were reminiscent of the\nchild who was bitten that Silk attended to (the name slips my mind)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always took the blood-bats to be actual bats, similar to South \nAmerican vampire bats except larger and less afraid of attacking people \nthan those we have on our \"Earth.\" Also, the physical reactions of \nanybody that loses a lot blood -- whether to a vampire bat, an inhumu, \nor a cut on the wrist -- would be the same, although the emotional \nreactions might quite different.\n\n\nAnd as for some other creature evolving into the inhumi: this could \nonly happen if Urth somehow became . . . Green? . . . since that's the \nonly place the inhumi can breed. \n\n\nBy the way, I think the child's name was Teasel.\n\n\nCharles" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-11-25T19:30:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk wrote:\nOn 25/11/2002 18:02:17 cilluff1 wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "other words, if the inhumi can travel to Urth (as has been\nsuggested off Quetzal) then they've *got* to do that\nWe would hear stories of them them on Urth, see one\nflying in the distance, observe people who don't eat,\ncan't run, and lick their chops when someone mentions\nblood. Something. Some indication. But there's\nnothing. No indication whatsoever that any of the\ninhumi have ever been on Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I dislike the inhumi on earth theory. Dislike it a great deal.\n\nHowever there is no necesity for inhumi to travel to earth by their own\nmeans. Think apports, ships and mirrors." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK. That would mean that there are (or were) such devices on Green (or \nBlue). And again, we're thrown into the realm of having no evidence of \nany kind -- that I'm aware of, that is -- to suggest such a thing. And \nit's this kind of thing that bugs me. \n\nI know there are different schools of thought in how to \"criticize\" \nliterature. One such school of thought, sometimes referred to as \n\"Formalism,\" holds that a work of literature should be judged solely on \nwhat is in the text itself -- not the author's background or religious \nbeliefs, not the historical context in which the author wrote, not the \nunspoken, underlying psychology motivating the characters, etc. \n Obviously, few people who post to this list (including me) subscribe to \nthis school of thought since we all tend to make use of the fact that \nWolfe is a Roman Catholic, that he has said this or that in certain \ninterviews, etc. In fact, it severely limits a person's ability to \nevaluate a work because it fails to account for allusions and resonances \nwith other works.\n\nStill, I believe that any theory of what a text means has to be \nsupported in some discernible way by the text itself. To do otherwise, \nI think, is merely to play games -- to build a house of cards that has \nno firm foundation in the bedrock text. (e.g., the \"Frodo and Sam were \ngay lovers\" nonsense).\n\nCharles" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-11-25T23:25:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:30 PM 11/25/2002, you wrote:\nmatthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 25/11/2002 18:02:17 cilluff1 wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "other words, if the inhumi can travel to Urth (as has been\nsuggested off Quetzal) then they've *got* to do that\nWe would hear stories of them them on Urth, see one\nflying in the distance, observe people who don't eat,\ncan't run, and lick their chops when someone mentions\nblood. Something. Some indication. But there's\nnothing. No indication whatsoever that any of the\ninhumi have ever been on Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I would be kind of weirded out to discover that Gene Wolfe had \nalready thought up the whole Long Sun and New Sun and inhumi businesses at \nthe time he wrote New Sun. I mean, gimmeabreak! It's a bit much to ask to \nfind inhumi in the New Sun quartet/quintet.\n But I think your argument is sound. Once Wolfe came up with the \nLong Sun and the inhumi, if he were going to put Quetzal on Urth during the \ntime Typhon was abuilding his ark, there'd be some allusion that would \npoint in that direction. Where is it? Nowhere that has been found.\n And there is a perfect place for such a revelation: when Silk \ntravels to Urth in the days of Severian's childhood. Plenty of opportunity \nfor Wolfe to add in an inhumi attack or some other hint of Urthly inhumi. \nBut he doesn't.\n And hey, Allah is just the arabic word for \"God.\" Christians in \nArab lands call God \"Allah.\" It's the arabic form of \"El\" or \"Elohim\" found \nin the Hebrew Bible. \"Allah\" was doubtless a word for God found in some of \nthe other cities, and Quetzal chooses to use it. Maybe even found in the \nChrasmological Writings, since they were cobbled from all over the place. \nNo need to think Quetzal had to have been on Urth to pick up this word.\n As for how Quetzal got on Starcrosser, we are TOLD that Neighbors \nseeded the ship with inhumi. Lacking any other indication, surely that's \nwhat we are to understand about how Quetzal got there. How he rose to such \npreeminence in the \"church\" is another question, and has been discussed \nhere. (Hey, a very thin, wizened \"man,\" an \"ascetic,\" might be just the \nkind of \"man\" to catch the eye of \"church\" superiors and be promoted \nrapidly. Add to this Quetzal's cunning, and the clearly corrupt nature of \nthe \"church,\" and you have all you need to imagine a rapid rise to eminence.)\n Wolfe says that if a gun appears in the first act, it has to be \nfired later on. Clearly the reverse is also true. If Quetzal was on \nStarcrosser from the beginning, then there is going to be something to \nindicate this. Nothing proffered thus far fits the bill.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-26T04:25:17+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Charles Reed\" \nI feel like I'm ranting, and I apologize. I just can't see any textual\nsupport (which again is not the same as the lack of refutation) for the\nidea that any inhumi ever visited Urth. Is there any?\n\nCharles" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No need at all to apologize. These texts can be maddening if you're looking\nfor conclusive evidence for anything. I think there is incidental support\nfor the inhumi on Urth, but I also think that Wolfe shoehorned it in after\nthe fact. Near the end of Claw, Jolenta is bitten by something (a blood\nbat?) and the bleeding won't stop. Immediately after, they meet the Cumaen\nand Merryn in the ruined town of Apu Punchau. This doesn't have any\nrelevance by itself, but in Return to the Whorl, Silkhorn and Jahlee (and\nwhoever else) encounter Merryn on Urth and Jahlee seems to intimate that\nMerryn is an inhuma (at least that's one way to interpret it).\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2002-11-26T04:43:57+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:39 AM -0600 11/25/02, James Wynn wrote:\n(note the http? Mr. Ansely?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush,\n\nThank you for the complete URL. It may just be my Macintosh email \nclient (Eudora 5.1) that has a problem when you leave off the \nhttp://, so I may be the only one with a problem here, but I do \nappreciate it.\n\nYou did misspell my last name, but you can call me William.\n\nWilliam Insanely" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-11-26T11:03:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 25/11/2002 19:30:18 Charles Reed wrote:\nmatthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 25/11/2002 18:02:17 cilluff1 wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "other words, if the inhumi can travel to Urth (as has been\nsuggested off Quetzal) then they've *got* to do that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I dislike the inhumi on earth theory. Dislike it a great deal.\n\nHowever there is no necesity for inhumi to travel to earth by their\nown\nmeans. Think apports, ships and mirrors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK. That would mean that there are (or were) such devices on Green (or\nBlue). And again, we're thrown into the realm of having no evidence of\nany kind -- that I'm aware of, that is -- to suggest such a thing. And\nit's this kind of thing that bugs me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No need for devices, or not on Blue/Green. The sails of The Ship\ntransport things by chance and the ship travels time.\n\nAlthough I've no interest in pressing the matter as inhumi on Earth isn't\nsomething I've any wish to promote.\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-11-26T11:34:44+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 26/11/2002 04:43:57 William Ansley wrote:\nAt 11:39 AM -0600 11/25/02, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(note the http? Mr. Ansely?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush,\n\nThank you for the complete URL. It may just be my Macintosh email\nclient (Eudora 5.1) that has a problem when you leave off the\nhttp://, so I may be the only one with a problem here," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nope, the mail clients I use also appreciate complete URL's\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-11-26T14:38:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don Doggett wrote:\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Charles Reed\" \nI feel like I'm ranting, and I apologize. I just can't see any textual" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "support (which again is not the same as the lack of refutation) for the\nidea that any inhumi ever visited Urth. Is there any?\n\nCharles" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No need at all to apologize. These texts can be maddening if you're looking\nfor conclusive evidence for anything. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to disagree. I think they're only maddening when you're looking \nfor conclusive evidence to support incorrect theories. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there is incidental support\nfor the inhumi on Urth, but I also think that Wolfe shoehorned it in after\nthe fact. Near the end of Claw, Jolenta is bitten by something (a blood\nbat?) and the bleeding won't stop. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But inhumu \"bites\" don't cause bleeding in their victims. People that \nare \"bitten\" feel the way that they do simply because they've lost blood \n-- by having it sucked out of them, not by bleeding externally. In \nfact, a lot of the victims don't even know that they've been attacked \n(see Inclito's mother as just one of many examples). This certainly \nwouldn't be the case if the attack resulted in bleeding of any kind, \nmuch less uncontrollable bleeding." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Immediately after, they meet the Cumaen\nand Merryn in the ruined town of Apu Punchau. This doesn't have any\nrelevance by itself, but in Return to the Whorl, Silkhorn and Jahlee (and\nwhoever else) encounter Merryn on Urth and Jahlee seems to intimate that\nMerryn is an inhuma (at least that's one way to interpret it)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can you quote the passage in RttW that \"Jahlee seems to intimate that Merryn\nis an inhuma\" ?\n\nAgain, I hate to use \"extra-textual\" sources to support my idea (or to attack your idea), but I'm afraid I'm going to. In the same Nick Gevers interview in which Wolfe explained his ideas about the g\n\nQ: Are the Cumaen and/or Merryn inhumi? Possibly, or definitely?\nA: No. The Cumaean is an alien but not an inhuma. Merryn is a human \nbeing.\n\nTake that for what it's worth. I've not known Gene Wolfe to lie about \nanything in an interview. He doesn't always answer the question that is \nasked, but when he does, I believe what he says.\n\nCharles" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-11-27T19:29:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello again. Just replying to my own message here.\n\nYesterday I asked if anybody had a transcript of the Gene Wolfe People \nOnline transcript, and Roy Lackey was kind enough to e-mail it to me. \n (Thanks, Roy!) Here's a quote of interest from that transcript for \neverybody that's been following this Quetzal-on-Urth discussion:\n\n Question: In the Long Sun books, is Quetzal the only\n one of his kind on the Whorl? Was he an original\n passenger or a late arrival?\n\n Gene Wolfe: He was a late arrival. He is not the only\n one of his kind, but the Inhumi are rare on the Whorl.\n\nI still believe it to be relatively clear from the text that Quetzal is \na late boarder, but maybe this will convince some of the doubters. \n Crush, don't you have to give in now? Or do you believe Gene Wolfe to \nbe so sadistic as to outright lie about his own books?\n\nCharles" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-11-27T20:00:01+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Charles brings the tablets from the mountain:\n Question: In the Long Sun books, is Quetzal the only\n one of his kind on the Whorl? Was he an original\n passenger or a late arrival?\n\n Gene Wolfe: He was a late arrival. He is not the only\n one of his kind, but the Inhumi are rare on the Whorl.\n\nI still believe it to be relatively clear from the text that Quetzal is\na late boarder, but maybe this will convince some of the doubters.\n Crush, don't you have to give in now? Or do you believe Gene Wolfe to\nbe so sadistic as to outright lie about his own books?\n\nCrush concedes:\nSadistic, yes. But not in that way. I can hardly argue with the author. And\nwith this light thrown on the subject, I cannot divine any consistent\nnarrative value to Quetzal's story of A-man and Wo-man." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bratt Ian", "address": "ian.bratt at colorado.edu" }, "date": "2002-11-28T07:38:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Quetzal On Urth?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Question: In the Long Sun books, is Quetzal the only\n one of his kind on the Whorl? Was he an original\n passenger or a late arrival?\n\n Gene Wolfe: He was a late arrival. He is not the only\n one of his kind, but the Inhumi are rare on the Whorl.\n\nI still believe it to be relatively clear from the text that Quetzal is\na late boarder, but maybe this will convince some of the doubters.\n Crush, don't you have to give in now? Or do you believe Gene Wolfe to\nbe so sadistic as to outright lie about his own books?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just for clarity I wanted to point out a few lines from RTTW that support\nthis.\n\nRTTW pg 235:\n\n\"To Viron, yes, mysire. Also to Grotestad. To go to the Long sun Whorl I\nwould like...\"\nI told her it was possible she would.\n\"There the Vanished People went?\"\nI nodded.\n\"To greet us it was?\"\n\"You might put it so, though they were sensible enough to find out a good\ndeal about us--and infect us with inhumi--\"\n\"Bad thing!\"\n\"Before they ventured to greet even a few of us.\"\n\"Bad it was,\" Vadsig agreed with Oreb.\n\"To leave inhumi among us?\" I shook my head. \"It was a small price to pay\nfor two whorls, and it enabled the Neighbors to gauge much more accurately\nthe differences between our race and their own.\"\n\"Because our blood they drink, mysire?\"\n\n-ian" } ] } ] }