{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3610", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3610, "subject": "urth inhumation and unwanted change", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-11-26T14:00:23+00:00", "last": "2002-11-26T18:55:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "maa32", "address": "maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu" }, "date": "2002-11-26T14:00:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) urth inhumation and unwanted change", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A lot of discussion on whether or not inhumi were hinted at on Urth - keep in \nmind that they would be on Lune in a simplistic state at that time period, \nwith perhaps a few that had become humanoid due to Lune's settlers and the \ncloseness of the moon to Urth. Juganu does seem to say that \"We are \neverywhere\" when he is back on Urth (or was that Jahlee?). I think Wolfe is \ntrying to pull a literary joke: let me hide the setting of my text, let me \nhide the identity of the first narrator in a hus, and let me give enough \nevidence that can be ALMOST explained away - I don't see why he would feel \ncompelled to give us a clear glimpse of inhumu on earth at all - HE DOESN'T \nWANT TO PLAY FAIR IN SHORT SUN. (Even though I think he really does give us \njust enough to figure it out and explain away the paradoxes).\n\nAlso, I got his final confirmation on whether or not Wolfe wanted the change \nin Epiphany of the Long Sun where, instead of saying \"and then I came into the \nroom\", it says \"and then Horn came into the room.\"\nHe says he didn't know about the change and he didn't like it. Editors, man.\nMarc Aramini" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-11-26T15:43:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) urth inhumation and unwanted change", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Several things, including an argument for why Green is not Lune:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "maa32 wrote:\nA lot of discussion on whether or not inhumi were hinted at on Urth - keep in \nmind that they would be on Lune in a simplistic state at that time period, \nwith perhaps a few that had become humanoid due to Lune's settlers and the \ncloseness of the moon to Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're assuming, of course, that Lune = Green, which I don't believe to \nbe the case.\n\nBut even if that were the case, why would the inhumi be in a simplistic \nstate? How much evolution is going to occur in 1000 or 2000 years? How \nmuch have humans evolved over the last 2000 years? We're certainly \nbigger than we used to be, largely attributable to better diet and \nbetter living conditions, but a human living 2000 (or 10,000) years ago \ncertainly wouldn't be physiologically \"simplistic\" compared to us. \n\nThere's another thing that's always bugged me about the Urth = Blue, \nLune = Green theory, and that is this: From my reading, Green is not in \norbit around Blue. It's a separate planet, necessarily closer to the \n\"short sun\" than Blue, due to its noticeably warmer weather. [This is \nspeculation, of course, but I believe it to be sound. We may infer \nGreen's warmer weather is because of its closer proximity to the sun and \nNOT some kind of Venus-like greenhouse effect because there is a \nrelatively light cloud cover on Green. After all, Green is noticeably, \nprominently, and dominantly green -- not largely white with spots of \ngreen peeping through the clouds.] Either Blue or Green, or perhaps \nboth Blue and Green, have noticeably eccentric orbits, which brings the \nplanets relatively close together every six years (is that right? \n conjunctions are six years apart?). \n\nIf Green orbited Blue, which has markedly cooler global temperatures \nthan Green, in such a way that it only got \"close\" to Blue every six \nyears, the orbital picture would necessarily have to look something like \nthis:\n\n .\n . B .\n . .\n . .\n . .\n .G.\n \n\n\n [vast\n amount\n of\n space]\n\n\n\n SHORT\n SUN\n\n\nAnd for Green to swing so far toward the sun that its climate is \nnoticeably warmer -- and relatively stable, to boot! -- it seems to me \nthat it would have to travel so far away that the gravitational pull of \nBlue would be lost. \n\nSo. The only orbital pattern that makes sense to me is, as I've already \nsaid, for Green and Blue to be separate planets, neither being a \nsatellite of the other.\n\nIf Green is Lune, though, then something drastic had to have happened to \nget it out of it's nice, stable orbit around Urth. This is true EVEN IF \nYOU BELIEVE that Green is a Blue's satellite.\n\nBut recall that the Green of the SS books and the Lune of the NS books \nexist concurrently. CONCURRENTLY. That is, at the _same_time_ Green is \napproaching and receding from Blue, Lune is making its regular, steady, \nnon-varying orbit around Urth.\n\nSo how can Green possibly be Lune? It can't.\n\nSo how can Blue possibly be Urth/Ushas? It can't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Juganu does seem to say that \"We are \neverywhere\" when he is back on Urth (or was that Jahlee?). I think Wolfe is \ntrying to pull a literary joke: let me hide the setting of my text" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it's hidden. I think Urth is Urth and Blue is Blue and \nnever the twain shall meet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ", let me \nhide the identity of the first narrator in a hus," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What that? Who's the narrator hiding in a hus?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and let me give enough \nevidence that can be ALMOST explained away" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it can all be explained away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- I don't see why he would feel \ncompelled to give us a clear glimpse of inhumu on earth at all - HE DOESN'T \nWANT TO PLAY FAIR IN SHORT SUN. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Wolfe is subtle, demanding, and sometimes frustrating. But I \nalso think he plays fair with his readers.\n\nCharles" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-11-26T17:04:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) urth inhumation and unwanted change", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Charles Reed wrote:\nSeveral things, including an argument for why Green is not Lune:\n\nmaa32 wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A lot of discussion on whether or not inhumi were hinted at on Urth -\nkeep in \nmind that they would be on Lune in a simplistic state at that time\nperiod, \nwith perhaps a few that had become humanoid due to Lune's settlers and\nthe \ncloseness of the moon to Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're assuming, of course, that Lune = Green, which I don't believe to \nbe the case.\n\nBut even if that were the case, why would the inhumi be in a simplistic \nstate? How much evolution is going to occur in 1000 or 2000 years? How\n\nmuch have humans evolved over the last 2000 years? We're certainly \nbigger than we used to be, largely attributable to better diet and \nbetter living conditions, but a human living 2000 (or 10,000) years ago \ncertainly wouldn't be physiologically \"simplistic\" compared to us. \n\nThere's another thing that's always bugged me about the Urth = Blue, \nLune = Green theory, and that is this: From my reading, Green is not in\n\norbit around Blue. It's a separate planet, necessarily closer to the \n\"short sun\" than Blue, due to its noticeably warmer weather. [This is \nspeculation, of course, but I believe it to be sound. We may infer \nGreen's warmer weather is because of its closer proximity to the sun and\n\nNOT some kind of Venus-like greenhouse effect because there is a \nrelatively light cloud cover on Green. After all, Green is noticeably, \nprominently, and dominantly green -- not largely white with spots of \ngreen peeping through the clouds.] Either Blue or Green, or perhaps \nboth Blue and Green, have noticeably eccentric orbits, which brings the \nplanets relatively close together every six years (is that right? \n conjunctions are six years apart?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I recall from previous discussions, the problem with this\nsuggestion is that we sometimes see Green at \"full\", on the opposite\nside of Blue from the Short Sun. Maybe the most obvious example is\nat the very end on _Long Sun_. If I remember correctly, Green rises\nas the sun sets. I could never find any way to get the celestial\nmechanics to work out, and I suspect that Wolfe just did what he felt\nlike. Though who knows? There could be some exotic coupled orbits\nthat make everything work. \n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But recall that the Green of the SS books and the Lune of the NS books \nexist concurrently. CONCURRENTLY. That is, at the _same_time_ Green is\n\napproaching and receding from Blue, Lune is making its regular, steady, \nnon-varying orbit around Urth.\n\nSo how can Green possibly be Lune? It can't.\n\nSo how can Blue possibly be Urth/Ushas? It can't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Lots, maybe all, of the people who think Blue/Green is Urth/Lune\nbelieve that Silkhorn's dreams transport him in time as well as space.)\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ", let me \nhide the identity of the first narrator in a hus," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What that? Who's the narrator hiding in a hus?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, *something* strange goes on with Horn and Babbie at the end\nof OBW. Marc believes that most (or all?) of Horn's identity moves\ninto Babbie at that point. I'm not convinced--why then does the\nnarrator look like Horn in astral travel and Babbie not look\nrecognizably like Horn? (But then, in the first astral trip to\nGreen, Auk appears to recognize the narrator as Silk.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and let me give enough \nevidence that can be ALMOST explained away" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it can all be explained away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm inclined to agree. As far as Blue=Ushas goes, I think there's\npractically no evidence at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- I don't see why he would feel \ncompelled to give us a clear glimpse of inhumu on earth at all - HE\nDOESN'T \nWANT TO PLAY FAIR IN SHORT SUN. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Wolfe is subtle, demanding, and sometimes frustrating. But I \nalso think he plays fair with his readers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect he tries, but I don't think he always realizes what can be\ninterpreted as a clue.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-11-26T18:55:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) urth inhumation and unwanted change", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nAs I recall from previous discussions, the problem with this\nsuggestion is that we sometimes see Green at \"full\", on the opposite\nside of Blue from the Short Sun. Maybe the most obvious example is\nat the very end on _Long Sun_. If I remember correctly, Green rises\nas the sun sets. I could never find any way to get the celestial\nmechanics to work out, and I suspect that Wolfe just did what he felt\nlike. Though who knows? There could be some exotic coupled orbits\nthat make everything work. \n..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, this is the second time in the span of a couple of hours that I'm \nforced to admit to a mistake in celestial mechanics. Actually, I had \nforgotten about Green being \"full\" which does, of course, mean that Blue \nis between Green and the sun. Nice catch, and thanks for correcting me.\n\nEven in this case, though, it's still possible for Green to not be a \nsatellite of Blue. Green could simply have an orbit that takes it \noutside of Blue's orbit, and be of such an eccentricity that the \n\"outside\" part results in a conjunction every six years. But it seems \nlike in this situation, a collision would be bound to occur eventually.\n\nBut there I go talking about celestial mechanics again. I guess I \nshould just shut up about that subject, before I have to eat my words \nagain, huh? :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But recall that the Green of the SS books and the Lune of the NS books \nexist concurrently. CONCURRENTLY. That is, at the _same_time_ Green is\n\napproaching and receding from Blue, Lune is making its regular, steady, \nnon-varying orbit around Urth.\n\nSo how can Green possibly be Lune? It can't.\n\nSo how can Blue possibly be Urth/Ushas? It can't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Lots, maybe all, of the people who think Blue/Green is Urth/Lune\nbelieve that Silkhorn's dreams transport him in time as well as space.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, if you stipulate that astral projection is also time travel, then \nI'll concede that the possibility remains open. But why would time \ntravel occur only when projecting to Urth? There are projections to \nthree different planets that I'm aware of: \n\n1) In the pit, Horn projects back home to Lizard. This is somewhat \nspeculative since this whole scene might be a hallucination, but I think \nit much more probable that it's projection, albeit projection without \nHorn being aware of what is happening. If it is projection, then \nthere's no indication of a time-shift.\n\n2) Several projections to Green, all of which have no indication of a \ntime-shift that I can recall.\n\n3) Several projections to the Urth of Severian's time -- about 40 to 50 \nyears before the arrival of the New Sun and the birth of Ushas. If \nthere's a time-shift going on here, it's always the exact same time shift. \n\nCharles" } ] } ] }