Subject: (urth) urth inhumation and unwanted change

From: maa32 <maa32 at dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:00:23 +0000

A lot of discussion on whether or not inhumi were hinted at on Urth - keep in 
mind that they would be on Lune in a simplistic state at that time period, 
with perhaps a few that had become humanoid due to Lune's settlers and the 
closeness of the moon to Urth.  Juganu does seem to say that "We are 
everywhere" when he is back on Urth (or was that Jahlee?).  I think Wolfe is 
trying to pull a literary joke: let me hide the setting of my text, let me 
hide the identity of the first narrator in a hus, and let me give enough 
evidence that can be ALMOST explained away - I don't see why he would feel 
compelled to give us a clear glimpse of inhumu on earth at all - HE DOESN'T 
WANT TO PLAY FAIR IN SHORT SUN. (Even though I think he really does give us 
just enough to figure it out and explain away the paradoxes).

Also, I got his final confirmation on whether or not Wolfe wanted the change 
in Epiphany of the Long Sun where, instead of saying "and then I came into the 
room", it says "and then Horn came into the room."
He says he didn't know about the change and he didn't like it.  Editors, man.
Marc Aramini

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From: Charles Reed <cmreed at link.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:43:43 +0000

Several things, including an argument for why Green is not Lune:

maa32 wrote:

>closeness of the moon to Urth.
>

You're assuming, of course, that Lune = Green, which I don't believe to 
be the case.

But even if that were the case, why would the inhumi be in a simplistic 
state?  How much evolution is going to occur in 1000 or 2000 years?  How 
much have humans evolved over the last 2000 years?  We're certainly 
bigger than we used to be, largely attributable to better diet and 
better living conditions, but a human living 2000 (or 10,000) years ago 
certainly wouldn't be physiologically "simplistic" compared to us.  

There's another thing that's always bugged me about the Urth = Blue, 
Lune = Green theory, and that is this:  From my reading, Green is not in 
orbit around Blue.  It's a separate planet, necessarily closer to the 
"short sun" than Blue, due to its noticeably warmer weather.  [This is 
speculation, of course, but I believe it to be sound.  We may infer 
Green's warmer weather is because of its closer proximity to the sun and 
NOT some kind of Venus-like greenhouse effect because there is a 
relatively light cloud cover on Green.  After all, Green is noticeably, 
prominently, and dominantly green -- not largely white with spots of 
green peeping through the clouds.]  Either Blue or Green, or perhaps 
both Blue and Green, have noticeably eccentric orbits, which brings the 
planets relatively close together every six years (is that right? 
 conjunctions are six years apart?).  

If Green orbited Blue, which has markedly cooler global temperatures 
than Green, in such a way that it only got "close" to Blue every six 
years, the orbital picture would necessarily have to look something like 
this:

           .
         . B .
        .     .
       .       .
        .     .
          .G.

         [vast
         amount
           of
         space]

         SHORT
          SUN

And for Green to swing so far toward the sun that its climate is 
noticeably warmer -- and relatively stable, to boot! -- it seems to me 
that it would have to travel so far away that the gravitational pull of 
Blue would be lost.  

So.  The only orbital pattern that makes sense to me is, as I've already 
said, for Green and Blue to be separate planets, neither being a 
satellite of the other.

If Green is Lune, though, then something drastic had to have happened to 
get it out of it's nice, stable orbit around Urth.  This is true EVEN IF 
YOU BELIEVE that Green is a Blue's satellite.

But recall that the Green of the SS books and the Lune of the NS books 
exist concurrently.  CONCURRENTLY.  That is, at the _same_time_ Green is 
approaching and receding from Blue, Lune is making its regular, steady, 
non-varying orbit around Urth.

So how can Green possibly be Lune?  It can't.

So how can Blue possibly be Urth/Ushas?  It can't.

>  Juganu does seem to say that "We are 
>trying to pull a literary joke: let me hide the setting of my text
>

I don't think it's hidden.  I think Urth is Urth and Blue is Blue and 
never the twain shall meet.

>, let me 
>hide the identity of the first narrator in a hus,
>

What that?  Who's the narrator hiding in a hus?

> and let me give enough 
>evidence that can be ALMOST explained away
>

I think it can all be explained away.

> - I don't see why he would feel 
>WANT TO PLAY FAIR IN SHORT SUN. 
>

I think Wolfe is subtle, demanding, and sometimes frustrating.  But I 
also think he plays fair with his readers.

Charles

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:04:47 +0000

>  conjunctions are six years apart?).

As I recall from previous discussions, the problem with this
suggestion is that we sometimes see Green at "full", on the opposite
side of Blue from the Short Sun.  Maybe the most obvious example is
at the very end on _Long Sun_.  If I remember correctly, Green rises
as the sun sets.  I could never find any way to get the celestial
mechanics to work out, and I suspect that Wolfe just did what he felt
like.  Though who knows?  There could be some exotic coupled orbits
that make everything work. 
...

> So how can Blue possibly be Urth/Ushas?  It can't.

(Lots, maybe all, of the people who think Blue/Green is Urth/Lune
believe that Silkhorn's dreams transport him in time as well as space.)

...
> What that?  Who's the narrator hiding in a hus?

Well, *something* strange goes on with Horn and Babbie at the end
of OBW.  Marc believes that most (or all?) of Horn's identity moves
into Babbie at that point.  I'm not convinced--why then does the
narrator look like Horn in astral travel and Babbie not look
recognizably like Horn?  (But then, in the first astral trip to
Green, Auk appears to recognize the narrator as Silk.)

> I think it can all be explained away.

I'm inclined to agree.  As far as Blue=Ushas goes, I think there's
practically no evidence at all.

> also think he plays fair with his readers.

I suspect he tries, but I don't think he always realizes what can be
interpreted as a clue.

Jerry Friedman

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From: Charles Reed <cmreed at link.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:55:52 +0000

>that make everything work. 

Well, this is the second time in the span of a couple of hours that I'm 
forced to admit to a mistake in celestial mechanics.  Actually, I had 
forgotten about Green being "full" which does, of course, mean that Blue 
is between Green and the sun.  Nice catch, and thanks for correcting me.

Even in this case, though, it's still possible for Green to not be a 
satellite of Blue.  Green could simply have an orbit that takes it 
outside of Blue's orbit, and be of such an eccentricity that the 
"outside" part results in a conjunction every six years.  But it seems 
like in this situation, a collision would be bound to occur eventually.

But there I go talking about celestial mechanics again.  I guess I 
should just shut up about that subject, before I have to eat my words 
again, huh?  :-)

>believe that Silkhorn's dreams transport him in time as well as space.)

OK, if you stipulate that astral projection is also time travel, then 
I'll concede that the possibility remains open.  But  why would time 
travel occur only when projecting to Urth?  There are projections to 
three different planets that I'm aware of:  

1)  In the pit, Horn projects back home to Lizard.  This is somewhat 
speculative since this whole scene might be a hallucination, but I think 
it much more probable that it's projection, albeit projection without 
Horn being aware of what is happening.  If it is projection, then 
there's no indication of a time-shift.

2)  Several projections to Green, all of which have no indication of a 
time-shift that I can recall.

3)  Several projections to the Urth of Severian's time -- about 40 to 50 
years before the arrival of the New Sun and the birth of Ushas.  If 
there's a time-shift going on here, it's always the exact same time shift.  

Charles

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