# urth inhumation and unwanted change *The Urth list — 4 messages, 3 voices, 26 Nov 2002* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### maa32 *26 Nov 2002, 14:00* A lot of discussion on whether or not inhumi were hinted at on Urth - keep in mind that they would be on Lune in a simplistic state at that time period, with perhaps a few that had become humanoid due to Lune's settlers and the closeness of the moon to Urth. Juganu does seem to say that "We are everywhere" when he is back on Urth (or was that Jahlee?). I think Wolfe is trying to pull a literary joke: let me hide the setting of my text, let me hide the identity of the first narrator in a hus, and let me give enough evidence that can be ALMOST explained away - I don't see why he would feel compelled to give us a clear glimpse of inhumu on earth at all - HE DOESN'T WANT TO PLAY FAIR IN SHORT SUN. (Even though I think he really does give us just enough to figure it out and explain away the paradoxes). Also, I got his final confirmation on whether or not Wolfe wanted the change in Epiphany of the Long Sun where, instead of saying "and then I came into the room", it says "and then Horn came into the room." He says he didn't know about the change and he didn't like it. Editors, man. Marc Aramini --- ### Charles Reed *26 Nov 2002, 15:43 · follows maa32* Several things, including an argument for why Green is not Lune: > maa32 wrote: > A lot of discussion on whether or not inhumi were hinted at on Urth - keep in > mind that they would be on Lune in a simplistic state at that time period, > with perhaps a few that had become humanoid due to Lune's settlers and the > closeness of the moon to Urth. You're assuming, of course, that Lune = Green, which I don't believe to be the case. But even if that were the case, why would the inhumi be in a simplistic state? How much evolution is going to occur in 1000 or 2000 years? How much have humans evolved over the last 2000 years? We're certainly bigger than we used to be, largely attributable to better diet and better living conditions, but a human living 2000 (or 10,000) years ago certainly wouldn't be physiologically "simplistic" compared to us. There's another thing that's always bugged me about the Urth = Blue, Lune = Green theory, and that is this: From my reading, Green is not in orbit around Blue. It's a separate planet, necessarily closer to the "short sun" than Blue, due to its noticeably warmer weather. [This is speculation, of course, but I believe it to be sound. We may infer Green's warmer weather is because of its closer proximity to the sun and NOT some kind of Venus-like greenhouse effect because there is a relatively light cloud cover on Green. After all, Green is noticeably, prominently, and dominantly green -- not largely white with spots of green peeping through the clouds.] Either Blue or Green, or perhaps both Blue and Green, have noticeably eccentric orbits, which brings the planets relatively close together every six years (is that right? conjunctions are six years apart?). If Green orbited Blue, which has markedly cooler global temperatures than Green, in such a way that it only got "close" to Blue every six years, the orbital picture would necessarily have to look something like this: . . B . . . . . . . .G. [vast amount of space] SHORT SUN And for Green to swing so far toward the sun that its climate is noticeably warmer -- and relatively stable, to boot! -- it seems to me that it would have to travel so far away that the gravitational pull of Blue would be lost. So. The only orbital pattern that makes sense to me is, as I've already said, for Green and Blue to be separate planets, neither being a satellite of the other. If Green is Lune, though, then something drastic had to have happened to get it out of it's nice, stable orbit around Urth. This is true EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE that Green is a Blue's satellite. But recall that the Green of the SS books and the Lune of the NS books exist concurrently. CONCURRENTLY. That is, at the _same_time_ Green is approaching and receding from Blue, Lune is making its regular, steady, non-varying orbit around Urth. So how can Green possibly be Lune? It can't. So how can Blue possibly be Urth/Ushas? It can't. > Juganu does seem to say that "We are > everywhere" when he is back on Urth (or was that Jahlee?). I think Wolfe is > trying to pull a literary joke: let me hide the setting of my text I don't think it's hidden. I think Urth is Urth and Blue is Blue and never the twain shall meet. > , let me > hide the identity of the first narrator in a hus, What that? Who's the narrator hiding in a hus? > and let me give enough > evidence that can be ALMOST explained away I think it can all be explained away. > - I don't see why he would feel > compelled to give us a clear glimpse of inhumu on earth at all - HE DOESN'T > WANT TO PLAY FAIR IN SHORT SUN. I think Wolfe is subtle, demanding, and sometimes frustrating. But I also think he plays fair with his readers. Charles --- ### Jerry Friedman *26 Nov 2002, 17:04 · follows Charles Reed* > --- Charles Reed wrote: > Several things, including an argument for why Green is not Lune: > > maa32 wrote: >> A lot of discussion on whether or not inhumi were hinted at on Urth - >> keep in >> mind that they would be on Lune in a simplistic state at that time >> period, >> with perhaps a few that had become humanoid due to Lune's settlers and >> the >> closeness of the moon to Urth. > You're assuming, of course, that Lune = Green, which I don't believe to > be the case. > > But even if that were the case, why would the inhumi be in a simplistic > state? How much evolution is going to occur in 1000 or 2000 years? How > > much have humans evolved over the last 2000 years? We're certainly > bigger than we used to be, largely attributable to better diet and > better living conditions, but a human living 2000 (or 10,000) years ago > certainly wouldn't be physiologically "simplistic" compared to us. > > There's another thing that's always bugged me about the Urth = Blue, > Lune = Green theory, and that is this: From my reading, Green is not in > > orbit around Blue. It's a separate planet, necessarily closer to the > "short sun" than Blue, due to its noticeably warmer weather. [This is > speculation, of course, but I believe it to be sound. We may infer > Green's warmer weather is because of its closer proximity to the sun and > > NOT some kind of Venus-like greenhouse effect because there is a > relatively light cloud cover on Green. After all, Green is noticeably, > prominently, and dominantly green -- not largely white with spots of > green peeping through the clouds.] Either Blue or Green, or perhaps > both Blue and Green, have noticeably eccentric orbits, which brings the > planets relatively close together every six years (is that right? > conjunctions are six years apart?). As I recall from previous discussions, the problem with this suggestion is that we sometimes see Green at "full", on the opposite side of Blue from the Short Sun. Maybe the most obvious example is at the very end on _Long Sun_. If I remember correctly, Green rises as the sun sets. I could never find any way to get the celestial mechanics to work out, and I suspect that Wolfe just did what he felt like. Though who knows? There could be some exotic coupled orbits that make everything work. ... > But recall that the Green of the SS books and the Lune of the NS books > exist concurrently. CONCURRENTLY. That is, at the _same_time_ Green is > > approaching and receding from Blue, Lune is making its regular, steady, > non-varying orbit around Urth. > > So how can Green possibly be Lune? It can't. > > So how can Blue possibly be Urth/Ushas? It can't. (Lots, maybe all, of the people who think Blue/Green is Urth/Lune believe that Silkhorn's dreams transport him in time as well as space.) ... >> , let me >> hide the identity of the first narrator in a hus, > What that? Who's the narrator hiding in a hus? Well, *something* strange goes on with Horn and Babbie at the end of OBW. Marc believes that most (or all?) of Horn's identity moves into Babbie at that point. I'm not convinced--why then does the narrator look like Horn in astral travel and Babbie not look recognizably like Horn? (But then, in the first astral trip to Green, Auk appears to recognize the narrator as Silk.) >> and let me give enough >> evidence that can be ALMOST explained away > I think it can all be explained away. I'm inclined to agree. As far as Blue=Ushas goes, I think there's practically no evidence at all. >> - I don't see why he would feel >> compelled to give us a clear glimpse of inhumu on earth at all - HE >> DOESN'T >> WANT TO PLAY FAIR IN SHORT SUN. > I think Wolfe is subtle, demanding, and sometimes frustrating. But I > also think he plays fair with his readers. I suspect he tries, but I don't think he always realizes what can be interpreted as a clue. Jerry Friedman --- ### Charles Reed *26 Nov 2002, 18:55 · follows Jerry Friedman* > Jerry Friedman wrote: > As I recall from previous discussions, the problem with this > suggestion is that we sometimes see Green at "full", on the opposite > side of Blue from the Short Sun. Maybe the most obvious example is > at the very end on _Long Sun_. If I remember correctly, Green rises > as the sun sets. I could never find any way to get the celestial > mechanics to work out, and I suspect that Wolfe just did what he felt > like. Though who knows? There could be some exotic coupled orbits > that make everything work. > ... Well, this is the second time in the span of a couple of hours that I'm forced to admit to a mistake in celestial mechanics. Actually, I had forgotten about Green being "full" which does, of course, mean that Blue is between Green and the sun. Nice catch, and thanks for correcting me. Even in this case, though, it's still possible for Green to not be a satellite of Blue. Green could simply have an orbit that takes it outside of Blue's orbit, and be of such an eccentricity that the "outside" part results in a conjunction every six years. But it seems like in this situation, a collision would be bound to occur eventually. But there I go talking about celestial mechanics again. I guess I should just shut up about that subject, before I have to eat my words again, huh? :-) >> But recall that the Green of the SS books and the Lune of the NS books >> exist concurrently. CONCURRENTLY. That is, at the _same_time_ Green is >> >> approaching and receding from Blue, Lune is making its regular, steady, >> non-varying orbit around Urth. >> >> So how can Green possibly be Lune? It can't. >> >> So how can Blue possibly be Urth/Ushas? It can't. > (Lots, maybe all, of the people who think Blue/Green is Urth/Lune > believe that Silkhorn's dreams transport him in time as well as space.) OK, if you stipulate that astral projection is also time travel, then I'll concede that the possibility remains open. But why would time travel occur only when projecting to Urth? There are projections to three different planets that I'm aware of: 1) In the pit, Horn projects back home to Lizard. This is somewhat speculative since this whole scene might be a hallucination, but I think it much more probable that it's projection, albeit projection without Horn being aware of what is happening. If it is projection, then there's no indication of a time-shift. 2) Several projections to Green, all of which have no indication of a time-shift that I can recall. 3) Several projections to the Urth of Severian's time -- about 40 to 50 years before the arrival of the New Sun and the birth of Ushas. If there's a time-shift going on here, it's always the exact same time shift. Charles ---