{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3613", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3613, "subject": "Blushas", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-11-26T17:24:31+00:00", "last": "2002-12-10T22:10:28+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-11-26T17:24:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Blushas", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, let's take this one step at a time.\n\nSuppose that Blue is Urth/Ushas and Green is Lune.\n\nOkay, let's suppose that. That means we have to allow astral\ntime travel.\n\nThen we have the question, \"Why, when astrally projecting with\nthe Duko, did the Narrator wind up in the age of Severian?\"\n\nWell, that seems a little difficult to me. To diffuse one \nanswer -- the presence of the Duko will _not_ resolve the\nproblem, because the Duko comes from the time of Typhon.\nThus, if we extend the \"you can only project to somewhere\nsomeone in your group has been to before\" idea to time, you\nwind up having them project to the time of Typhon -- which,\nevidently, they don't. \n\nI challenge the supporters of the \"Blue = Ushas\" theory to\ncome up with a good and reasonable explanation of why they\nwind up in Severian's time.\n\nI offer extra credit if it does not include any lame \ninvocations of relativity. (\"Oh, see, well, 1000 years have \npassed for the cargo of the Starcrosser, so they project\nto 1000 years after when the Duko left...\")" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Veyera", "address": "teflon93 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-11-27T01:24:28+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Blushas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ": I challenge the supporters of the \"Blue = Ushas\" theory to\ncome up with a good and reasonable explanation of why they\nwind up in Severian's time.\n\nI offer extra credit if it does not include any lame\ninvocations of relativity. (\"Oh, see, well, 1000 years have\npassed for the cargo of the Starcrosser, so they project\nto 1000 years after when the Duko left...\")\n\n--Blattid:\n\nI thought that Pas/Typhon's daughter Scylla had possessed Oreb at that\npoint. They went back to Urth as she had been born there.\n\nDo I get extra credit? : )\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:ddanehy at siebel.com]\nSent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:25 AM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Blushas\n\n\nOkay, let's take this one step at a time.\n\nSuppose that Blue is Urth/Ushas and Green is Lune.\n\nOkay, let's suppose that. That means we have to allow astral\ntime travel.\n\nThen we have the question, \"Why, when astrally projecting with\nthe Duko, did the Narrator wind up in the age of Severian?\"\n\nWell, that seems a little difficult to me. To diffuse one\nanswer -- the presence of the Duko will _not_ resolve the\nproblem, because the Duko comes from the time of Typhon.\nThus, if we extend the \"you can only project to somewhere\nsomeone in your group has been to before\" idea to time, you\nwind up having them project to the time of Typhon -- which,\nevidently, they don't.\n\nI challenge the supporters of the \"Blue = Ushas\" theory to\ncome up with a good and reasonable explanation of why they\nwind up in Severian's time.\n\nI offer extra credit if it does not include any lame\ninvocations of relativity. (\"Oh, see, well, 1000 years have\npassed for the cargo of the Starcrosser, so they project\nto 1000 years after when the Duko left...\")" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Don Doggett", "address": "harlekin at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-11-27T04:35:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Blushas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\" I challenge the supporters of the \"Blue = Ushas\" theory to\ncome up with a good and reasonable explanation of why they\nwind up in Severian's time.\n\nI offer extra credit if it does not include any lame\ninvocations of relativity. (\"Oh, see, well, 1000 years have\npassed for the cargo of the Starcrosser, so they project\nto 1000 years after when the Duko left...\")\n\n--Blattid\"\n\nI'll take that bet, mister. If the person in the pit who revives Horn is\nSeverian as a Vanished Person then there was a comingling of the two.\nWhether you accept that it was Severian or not, at least grant me that there\nwas a mingling of \"whatevers\". Therefore the narrator is also part Severian\nin addition to being part Silk and part Horn, and could thus travel to\nSeverian's time. The only invocation of relativity I will offer is that\nSilk is either Severian's half brother or his genetic father, but pretend I\ndidn't say that as it has no bearing on this discussion. As for the inhumi\ntravelling from Lune to Urth, they simply would have flown, like they do\nfrom Green to Blue. And there are plenty of instances where the inhumi\ncould be on Urth simply through the connotations of Urth being Earth.\nVampires, goatsuckers, etc. In one sense that's what they are - demonic\nbloodsucking shapeshifters. I'd argue it's only natural for them to be on\nUrth.\n\nBlattid, your subject heading leads me to something that has been preying on\nmy mind for the last several days. This Blushas argument has been going on\nand off for quite some time and no one is really willing to give ground, nor\nshould they. But what if what Wolfe has done is write a dual text, one that\nis ambiguous enough that you can read it either way and still not lose its\nbasic meaning. I don't think that is beyond him at all. I'm not proposing\nsome insipid \"We're both right!\" solution. I'm just saying that no one here\nis stupid or terribly careless and yet no one can seem to deliver the goods\nfor either argument.\n\nDon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-12-10T22:10:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Blushas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fact is that, while I don't believe that Blue/Green are Ushas/Lune, it\ndoes ring true on a deep level.\n\nI have been puzzling over this.\n\nAll I can suggest is that Blue/Green are a new \"Urth\" but are not \"Ushas\",\nif that makes sense.\n\n\n\n\nWolfe has to write about certain themes of redemption and of man's relation\nto God in a fallen universe.\n\nThese themes drive, not merely the plot, but the *Physics* of the Lupiverse:\nand they also drve its (retroactively corrected) history\n\n\n\nI suspect that when he started the BOTLS Wolfe did not know where he was\ngoing, did not realise the Whorl was in orbit round a sun, and did not know\nabout Blue and Green.\n\nAt the end of BOTLS, Blue and Green existed, but most definitely were not\nUshas and Lune\n\nAt the end of BOTSS, I think Blue and Green have moved some way towards\nbecoming Ushas and Lune.\n\nThey are not there yet, no. But if Wolfe ever pens a fourth book in\nthebtrilogy, the doubters may get some suprises.\n\n(and of course, if Blue and Green become Ushas/Lune at the end of this\nfourth book, they will **always** have been Ushas and Lune)\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] } ] }