Subject: (urth) Blushas

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:24:31 +0000

Okay, let's take this one step at a time.

Suppose that Blue is Urth/Ushas and Green is Lune.

Okay, let's suppose that. That means we have to allow astral
time travel.

Then we have the question, "Why, when astrally projecting with
the Duko, did the Narrator wind up in the age of Severian?"

Well, that seems a little difficult to me. To diffuse one 
answer -- the presence of the Duko will _not_ resolve the
problem, because the Duko comes from the time of Typhon.
Thus, if we extend the "you can only project to somewhere
someone in your group has been to before" idea to time, you
wind up having them project to the time of Typhon -- which,
evidently, they don't. 

I challenge the supporters of the "Blue = Ushas" theory to
come up with a good and reasonable explanation of why they
wind up in Severian's time.

I offer extra credit if it does not include any lame 
invocations of relativity. ("Oh, see, well, 1000 years have 
passed for the cargo of the Starcrosser, so they project
to 1000 years after when the Duko left...")

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From: Jeff Veyera <teflon93 at cox.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 01:24:28 +0000

--Blattid:

I thought that Pas/Typhon's daughter Scylla had possessed Oreb at that
point.  They went back to Urth as she had been born there.

Do I get extra credit?  : )

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:ddanehy at siebel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:25 AM
To: urth at urth.net
Subject: (urth) Blushas

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From: Don Doggett <harlekin at earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:35:30 +0000

" I challenge the supporters of the "Blue = Ushas" theory to
come up with a good and reasonable explanation of why they
wind up in Severian's time.

--Blattid"

I'll take that bet, mister.  If the person in the pit who revives Horn is
Severian as a Vanished Person then there was a comingling of the two.
Whether you accept that it was Severian or not, at least grant me that there
was a mingling of "whatevers".  Therefore the narrator is also part Severian
in addition to being part Silk and part Horn, and could thus travel to
Severian's time.  The only invocation of relativity I will offer is that
Silk is either Severian's half brother or his genetic father, but pretend I
didn't say that as it has no bearing on this discussion.  As for the inhumi
travelling from Lune to Urth, they simply would have flown, like they do
from Green to Blue.  And there are plenty of instances where the inhumi
could be on Urth simply through the connotations of Urth being Earth.
Vampires, goatsuckers, etc.  In one sense that's what they are - demonic
bloodsucking shapeshifters.  I'd argue it's only natural for them to be on
Urth.

Blattid, your subject heading leads me to something that has been preying on
my mind for the last several days.  This Blushas argument has been going on
and off for quite some time and no one is really willing to give ground, nor
should they.  But what if what Wolfe has done is write a dual text, one that
is ambiguous enough that you can read it either way and still not lose its
basic meaning.  I don't think that is beyond him at all.  I'm not proposing
some insipid "We're both right!" solution.  I'm just saying that no one here
is stupid or terribly careless and yet no one can seem to deliver the goods
for either argument.

Don

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:10:28 +0000

The fact is that, while I don't believe that Blue/Green  are Ushas/Lune, it
does ring true on a deep level.

I have been puzzling over this.

All I can suggest is that Blue/Green are a new "Urth" but are not "Ushas",
if that makes sense.

Wolfe has to write about certain themes of redemption and of man's relation
to God in a fallen universe.

These themes drive, not merely the plot, but the *Physics* of the Lupiverse:
and they also drve its (retroactively corrected) history

I suspect that when he started the BOTLS Wolfe did not know where he was
going, did not realise the Whorl was in orbit round a sun, and did not know
about Blue and Green.

At the end of BOTLS, Blue and Green existed, but most definitely were not
Ushas and Lune

At the end of BOTSS, I think Blue and Green have moved some way towards
becoming Ushas and Lune.

They are not there yet, no.  But if Wolfe ever pens a fourth book in
thebtrilogy, the doubters may get some suprises.

(and of course, if Blue and Green become Ushas/Lune at the end of this
fourth book, they will **always** have been Ushas and Lune)

    hartshorn

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