{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3617", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3617, "subject": "Free Live Free (round table part 2) SPOILERS", "messages": 1, "voices": 1, "first": "2002-11-26T19:33:15+00:00", "last": "2002-11-26T19:33:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-11-26T19:33:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Free Live Free (round table part 2) SPOILERS", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI think all that Free meant was that he was literally too old and sick to\nderive any benefit from using the gizmo again; after all, that was why he\nleft the frontier for good in the first place. Any physical benefit to be\ngained from leaving from and returning to, roughly, the same time period (as\nwhen he looked and felt better the second time around in 1942), was limited.\nHe said that the early-model gizmo that sent him back from 1952 three months\nbefore he left \"couldn't be controlled with pinpoint accuracy then\". That\nimplies that subsequent refinements made use of the gizmo more precise. It\ncouldn't be used to 'cheat time', to keep himself forever young.\nPhysiologically, he aged more or less as any man would. He was ready to die\nwhen Kip killed him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well that is true and worth pointing out. OTOH, Free does speak about his\nimpending murder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is where the inevitable time paradoxes pop up. When Whitten, with Kip\nand others, went from Aug., 1942 to Nov., 1982, they set up a base at the\nairport. Two months later, old Free shows up and Whitten disappears for\nseven days. Where was he? When Free is killed, Whitten returns, age 53.\nThree days after that, Whitten deserts the time project, presumably for the\nfrontier. The next accounting we have of him is in 1803, age 60. Where was\nhe for seven years?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The one detail I believe you are missing is that the \"seven years\" is\nactually an unspecified amount of time that has passed for Whitten between\nthe time when he saw the B-17 take off in 1983 and the time he met the four\nin High Country (High Country Whitten says he is unsure of his age but it\nis between 60 and 70). That is: we know where that lacuna falls within the\naction of the text.\n\nAs I understand it, Whitten was piecing together the mystery of Ben Free\nwhen the B-17 took off. He then spent the next x years figuring it all out\nand fixing it as best as he could, traveling back in time (between 1943 and\n1982) leaving calendar-clock triggered tape-recordings of instructions for\nagents and agencies across the years.\n\nThat is to say: Whitten (age 54, say) is the puppet master; once he has\nfigured out that he is/will become Ben Free, then he works to minimize the\ndamage and optimize the outcomes.\n\nOn to Adam Stephanides's post." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\n1) Why are there two Whittens (in addition to \"Ben Free\")\nin 1983? The younger Whitten (the man in the duffle coat)\nis there on his second trip with the gizmo for the government.\nWhat is the older Whitten doing there?\n\n2) When \"Ben Free\" reappears on January 14, 1983, where did\nhe come from? He didn't come from the frontier, because he\nleft the frontier for the last time before he hid the gizmo\nin the wall, and that was presumably before January 14, 1983.\n\n3) A minor point, but in Chapter 52 the witch tells the others\nthat \"Today I defrauded a certain one, the namesake of one who\npossesses much authority, below.\" Is there a demon named\nMcAlister? Or is there some joke regarding McAlister's first\nname (which I don't remember ever being stated) which I missed?\nOr did she defraud somebody else that day?\n\nNobody responded to them, but whether that was because nobody knew the\nanswers or because nobody cared I don't know.\n\nIt's been several years since I last read the book, and I have almost no\nrecollection of Whitten/Free's peregrinations, which were never that clear\nto me in the first place. (I don't even remember there being two Whittens.)\nSo I have no idea to what extent your timeline answers my first two\nquestions. You seem to be saying that Free did come from the frontier when\nhe reappeared on Jan. 14, 1983; again, I don't recall now why I thought he\ndidn't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First, your number 3: McAlister's first name (chapter 26) is Bill (or\nWilliam). Since that doesn't ring any bells, I suspect that \"McAlister\" is\nto be read as \"son of Aleister\": witness title of chapter 43, \"A Friend of\nCrowley's\" which speaks of Aleister Crowley. Add to this the witch's habit\nof seeing magical reasons for everything that happens to her, and maybe it\nworks. Or just the demon Alastor (\"avenger\").\n\nNext, number 1: There were two Whittens: one on the ground at the airport\nand an older one at High Country. It is confusing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for where Free went from the frontier, I wrote:\n1803 -- (age 60) Ben Free joins Lewis & Clark expedition.\n\n1807-18 (age 64-75) Free visits the house using the portable gizmo to\nleave the\n frontier and backdoor gizmo to return to the frontier.\n\n1819 -- (age 76) Free leaves the frontier for good . . . using the portable\n gizmo in a cave in Kentucky (?), he returns to the house.\n Then he retreives the portable gizmo on foot (in the \"house\n timeframe\"), and hides it in the wall of the house.\n\n1983 -- (age 76+) Jan 14: Free visits 1983 house, Whitten disappears.\n Jan 16: Free's ad.\n Jan 17: The four move in.\n Jan 18: The novel begins.\n Jan 19: Kip takes Free prisoner.\n Jan 21: Kip kills Free (Whitten reappears)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what timeframe year Free =first= visits the house (that is,\nwhere in the timestream the house is located), and I tried to make that\nclear. In the previous post I wondered that there might be a gray area\n(1943-1982), a safe place for him to dwell, but on second thought it would\nbe more like (1953-1982) to avoid imploding when Whitten visits 1952, or\nmore narrow than that, since he doesn't want to \"write over\" a period where\nhe would be naturally living in the time stream. If he figures he will\nlive to be 80 years old, then his natural time stream would be 1889-1969,\nso he might aim for 1970-1982 as a safe haven.\n\nOTOH the link to the house might be in the 19th century, before Whitten's\nbirth; but while this has possibilities, for the end result (transformation\nof the four) it seems like the link from the back porch to the kitchen must\nbe in or around summer 1982.\n\nOne of the difficulties in pegging the time Free spent at the house in real\ntime: Mrs. Baker says he has only been there a few years (of course, her\nutterances are always a challenge for interpretation); Dr. Mackee implies\nFree has been there for decades prior to 1983.\n\nNEW OBSERVATIONS:\n\n\"What city, please?\"\n\nWhere is this novel taking place? I assumed Chicago, but the address is\n808 South 38th Street, and looking at a map of Chicago it seems that 38th\ngoes east/west.\n\nAnother candidate is Buffalo, birth town and manufacturing location of\nWhitten. But looking at a Buffalo map, there doesn't seem to be a 38th\nStreet.\n\nMaybe someone has already worked this one out and has the easy answer! Or\nmaybe the city itself is nonexistant, like the city in PEACE.\n\n\"Oz books and Oz film\"\n\nFLF is like the film in the sense that there are refs to the film, and the\n\"it was all a dream, and the housemates were all different in that dream\"\nsense of the ending. Which does not happen in the books.\n\nFLF is like the books in that, once it has established the principal\ncharacters (the four), there is a flood of quirky, nutty, helpful, and\noften bewildering minor characters.\n\n\"The Shadow of the Graves\"\n\nYes, Robert Graves. We have talked before about how odd that Ozzie Barnes,\nthe novelties salesman (note that Wizard Oz was a non-magical magician full\nof novelties and props), has the name of \"Oz\" but also the repeated refs to\n\"Popeye,\" of all things. Seems to me that Gene Wolfe is pulling a Robert\nGraves stunt: basically, that Oz is the Great American myth, and so other\nAmerican signatures will appear, compounded and alloyed. Like those later,\nstar-studded Greek myths, for example, the Argonauts, where every\nparticipant has their own heroic past and tragic future, but they all come\ntogether for this seemingly synthetic yet rousing Big Adventure. (That is:\nGraves takes the already elaborate Greek Myths and further compounds and\nalloys them; I think Wolfe is doing the same with \"Oz\" and other Americana.)\n\nAt one point late in the text Ozzie was telling a joke about a farmer who\ncouldn't afford a glass eye, so he bought a wooden one. This seems to me\nto be a veiled reference to Pinnocchio, whose name of course means \"pine\neye,\" but I'm not sure what to do with this.\n\nSo who are the other four, if Barnes is Oz/Popeye? I'm not sure. The\nwitch has snake/panther aspects, in addition to being linked in the text to\nthe Oz witches (Wicked and Glinda). Stubbs almost has to be the nameless\n\"Continental Op\" of Dashiell Hammett fame (also a short guy, iirc, although\nperhaps not jockey short (a little Ozzie Barnes humor there--I surprise\nmyself)). Candy seems to be a Venus in transition from the Ice Age Venus\nfigurine (superhumanly fat) to a more classical form.\n\n=mantis=" } ] } ] }