{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3619", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3619, "subject": "Poor Moly", "messages": 15, "voices": 6, "first": "2002-11-27T08:49:55+00:00", "last": "2002-12-05T05:11:03+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-11-27T08:49:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush responds:\nRaise one hand and one hand only. Now tell me how you snap your \"FINGER\"\n(singular). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see why you're hung up on the one-hand-or-two angle. Marble took\nboth of Rose's hands, but even one hand that looks like an old woman's hand\nsuffices to establish that it did not originally come from a dismantled chem\nmaid. *After* the possession of Marble/Rose by Echidna was over, while the\nRose personality was telling Silk about the birth of Blood, she took hold of\none of Silk's hands: \"Her hand--he recognized it now as Maytera\nRose's--found his.\" (LS3: 4) He knew it was Rose's because it looked like an\nold woman's hand. The hand Blood cut off is such a hand. From the talus\nfactory chapter of LS4, page 138: \"Maytera Marble had passed her basket to\nSwallow; he took off the white towel that had covered her now-lifeless right\nhand and held it up, in appearance the hand of an elderly woman.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is no doubt that the parts came from a dismantled chem. Silk's\nconversation with Horn in LS2:1 proves beyond argument that Rose's\nprosthetics were not made originally for bios. Silk says quite clearly that\n(1)such technology was left behind on Urth and (2)while Xiphias' leg was\nsuch an artifact, Rose's definitely were not. The onus is on you to explain\nwhere they came from if not from a chem?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The onus *isn't* on me--it's your theory that the parts came from a\ndismantled chem. In any event, I've already provided an answer in an earlier\npost. Tarsier, for one, had the know-how, as evidenced by the highly\ncustomized, glow-in-the-dark body he provided for Lemur. The arms of that\nbody required a much higher degree of technical knowledge to build than a\ncosmetic veneer on a prosthetic hand. Further, the list of characters in\nLAKE says of Tarsier that he was \"expert on architecture and engineering\". I\ndoubt that he was unique." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marble (impersonating Moly) in LS3:10 says she had been at the Sun St.\ncenoby since before humans came to Viron. The onus is on you to explain\nwhat\nhappened to Moly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Moly is your problem, not mine. She doesn't appear in the books. I wouldn't\nsay that Marble was impersonating Moly; she was just lying. Marble's meeting\nwith Hammerstone is not related in the books. I don't know what she told\nhim, but her name was *never* Molybdenum; it was Magnesia before she became\na sibyl, just as she told Mint. (LS4, 359)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe you can show why anyone would create \"bony blue-veined\" prosthetic\nhands for ***anyone***, but I'm afraid I find the concept absurd." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fact remains that, like it or not, that's the way the text has it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've explained why the hands looked like that during Musk's sacrifice." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You were wrong, as I've shown. That's the way they looked, period.\n\nWhile I'm at it, I may as well shoot some more holes in your theory. You\nmaintain, on your Molybdenum web page, that \"old worn-out\" Marble was made a\nteacher, while (hypothetical, to me) Moly, \"whose parts were still in good\ncondition\", was dismantled to provide parts for *Betel*. I must point out\nthat, soldier or servant, *all the chems are the same age*. If, as you\nmaintain, \"Moly\" was at Sun Street from Day One, and if, as the text states,\nthe maid had no room at the cenoby because chems didn't need one, because a\nchem maid worked 24/7, then why should one maid be in much better condition\nthan another? Why should a cenoby built for six sibyls even *need* two\nmaids, when they work 24/7?\n\nAnd that business about Betel getting all those prosthetics: that's not in\nthe text, not even the need for them. You go further and claim that Rose\ninherited those prosthetics from Betel. That must have made quite a sight.\nBetel was \"fat\", whereas Rose was \"such a small woman\". (LS3: 4)\n\nAs you postulate young Pike as Blood's father, then all this unholy\ndismantling took place on his watch. And to think, the Outsider thought so\nwell of him as to grant him enlightenment. Three sibyls--Betel, Rose, and\nMarble--and an augur all kept their mouths shut about the murder/martyrdom\nof a chem maid. Or are you going to tell me that Pike didn't notice that a\nmaid was missing from the complex for forty-fifty years? Or that he was a\nfellow conspirator?\n\nYou also state on your page that Hammerstone, after his 74-year 'sleep',\nwent to Sun Street looking for his lost love, Moly. Pure fabrication,\ndirectly contradicted by the text:\n\n \"'I had to go on reserve. I went to sleep, and when I woke up I wasn't\nstationed in the city any more. Maybe I should've gone looking for Moly.' He\nshrugged. 'Only I figured by then she'd found somebody else. Just about all\nof them had.'\" (LS3: 3)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-11-27T15:21:39+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some nice catches in your last post. Thanks.\n\nBut in your verbose post, somehow you never addressed the fact that Silk\nsays bio prosthetic technology was not available to Rose and Marble (LS3:1).\nI realize there is a reason you missed it. \n\nHer \"LIE\" about being at the Sun St. cenoby since before humans came to\nViron was made in front of Hammerstone and Hammerstone would have known if\nit weren't true of Moly. That's simply beyond debate.\n\nI maintain, I haven't really changed on this, that the \"old hands\" you\nmention are an intriguing mystery, but they affect not at all the two points\nabove.\n\nAgain, thanks for the refinements on my Molybdenum story. They are greatly\nappreciated.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-11-27T15:31:04+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But in your verbose post, somehow you never addressed the fact that Silk\nsays bio prosthetic technology was not available to Rose and Marble (LS3:1).\nI realize there is a reason you missed it. \n\n\nOops! The conversation was in LS2:1." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-11-28T02:51:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nBut in your verbose post, somehow you never addressed the fact that Silk\nsays bio prosthetic technology was not available to Rose and Marble\n(LS3:1).\nI realize there is a reason you missed it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't miss it. Silk is a 23-year old mama's boy, a year-and-a-half out of\nthe seminary. His ignorance is encyclopedic. At that point in the story he\nthinks old-time pictures and sounds that once came out of computer terminals\nare really gods. He doesn't know that the Ayuntamiento is composed of chems,\nthat a lander is a spaceship, that Mainframe is a computer bank, that the\n_Whorl_ is a mote in a vast universe outside. He knows nothing about women.\nHe was taught at the schola that black mechanics don't exist, along with a\nlot of other nonsense that he lacks the intellectual wherewithal to question\nuntil he has his nose rubbed in it, if then. He doesn't know any better,\nbecause he is a product of his nurturing and, to quote Shaw, \"thinks that\nthe customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature\". He learns\nbetter, eventually.\n\nHe doesn't know, yet, that the _Whorl_ is a machine that is wearing out\nrapidly, just like Marble. He thinks the malfunction of the 'seasons' is due\nto the displeasure of the \"gods\". Within a week of the opening of the story\nhe learns a great many things that turn the foundations of his worldview\nupside down. One of the things he learned was that individuals such as\nTarsier could, and did, provide customized prosthetics like those\ndemonstrated by Lemur--for a price. Chem servants didn't have the price;\nthey were de facto slaves. If Marble had had the gelt, she could have bought\nnew/refurbished parts. She didn't; she couldn't even pay for a welding job\non her severed hand. The same goes for bios. Notice that in the text in\nquestion Silk laments the lack of prosthetics for Marble and Rose and \"for\nall the beggars who are blind or crippled\". Beggars, Crush, beggars. Just\nlike the legions of poor bios in the quarter who can't afford to be treated\nby a doctor. The wealthy don't have that problem. If wealthy bios need\nprosthetics, they can evidently be found. Or do you suppose Silk was just\ndiscriminating against the wealthy when he expressed his regrets?\n\nI repeat; it was only in the last few decades that prosthetics became\nscarce. They were not hard to find when Rose got most of hers, 40-50 years\nago. In fact, when chems were more common, they had their own \"doctors\". As\nSwallow told Silk: \"A doctor who specializes in chems should have one\n[opticsynapter], but I don't know of one here in Viron.\" (LS4, 139) Chem\n\"doctors\" were hard to find because their 'patients' had worn out and\n'died'. Cause of death: poverty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Her \"LIE\" about being at the Sun St. cenoby since before humans came to\nViron was made in front of Hammerstone and Hammerstone would have known if\nit weren't true of Moly. That's simply beyond debate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nonsense. Hammerstone wasn't there when the cenoby was staffed. He was a\nsoldier. Other than for periodic calls to active duty to pull CQ or in time\nof war, he, like the rest of the soldiers, spent most of his life 'asleep'.\nThink about it; his courtship of Moly was on-going when he last was ordered\nto sleep, something over 74 years ago. Viron was stocked with people more\nthan 300 years ago. Given the 7-8 to 1 ratio of male to female chems he\nclaims, do you really think he wasted two centuries or more courting her\nwithout popping the question?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I maintain, I haven't really changed on this, that the \"old hands\" you\nmention are an intriguing mystery, but they affect not at all the two\npoints\nabove." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then I can say no more.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-12-02T15:10:46+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok, Roy, I think I got it now. Your contention is that Silk was so clueless\nthat he wasn't aware that prosthetics were available even though there was a\nsibyl (just across the courtyard) who was about half artificial. Horn was\nequally clueless.\n\nAlso, within the same space of time since Kennedy was shot, the craftsmen\nwho used to build bio-prosthetics (specially designed to look old) and chem\nreplacement parts all died out without training any protégés.\n\nFinally, Hammerstone was never curious enough to enquire where his fiancé\nwas employed (because if he knew what she was doing at *any* time he would\nknow if she was not constantly employed at the cenoby).\n\nI don't see a way to bridge the gap between us --- which is a shame, because\nI think the \"old hands\" references you've pointed out bears investigation,\nbut you and I seem to be the only people interested.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-12-02T17:19:26+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C having written:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As you postulate young Pike as Blood's father,=20" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ahem ... While I have no idea whether Crush knows this or not,\nGene Wolfe holds the same hypothesis. Once upon a time, moments\nbefore I first joined this list back in '97, Gene Wolfe answered\na passel of questions from this list in a sort of informal\nemail interview. The entire article, \"Train from Wolfeland,\"\nwas posted by Mantis and can be found in the archives at\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0006/0350.shtml -- however\nthe relevant question and answer are quite short:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "12. \"Who was Blood's father?\" Patera Pike." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As for the Outisder thinking \"well\" of Pike, well, if we=20\nidentify the Outsider as the God worshipped by Christians,\nthen He has a quite uncanny fondness for repentant sinners..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-12-02T17:48:30+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 02/12/2002 17:19:26 Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nRoy C having written:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As you postulate young Pike as Blood's father,=20" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ahem ... While I have no idea whether Crush knows this or not,\nGene Wolfe holds the same hypothesis. Once upon a time, moments\nbefore I first joined this list back in '97, Gene Wolfe answered\na passel of questions from this list in a sort of informal\nemail interview. The entire article, \"Train from Wolfeland,\"\nwas posted by Mantis and can be found in the archives at\nhttp://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0006/0350.shtml -- however\nthe relevant question and answer are quite short:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "12. \"Who was Blood's father?\" Patera Pike." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the Outisder thinking \"well\" of Pike, well, if we=20\nidentify the Outsider as the God worshipped by Christians,\nthen He has a quite uncanny fondness for repentant sinners..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you for reminding me about that.\n\nSome of those questions and answers might stomp on a few of the currently\ndebated theories.\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-12-02T18:21:02+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blattid said:\nWhile I have no idea whether Crush knows this or not,\nGene Wolfe holds the same hypothesis... Gene Wolfe answered\na passel of questions from this list...\n\n\nCrush writes:\nThis is one of the few moments where Wolfe's answers in those questions\nconfirmed my thoughts rather than left me chagrined.\n\nI came to this opinion thusly:\n\n1. To whom else would Rose have sexual access? Not a long list there.\n\n2. Pike (spear) penetrates the Rose (of Sharon) and out comes Blood with\nMusk(water)\n\nThat's the way I think, which probably does not inspire others to follow\nwhere I lead.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-12-02T19:44:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nOk, Roy, I think I got it now. Your contention is that Silk was so clueless\nthat he wasn't aware that prosthetics were available even though there was\na\nsibyl (just across the courtyard) who was about half artificial. Horn was\nequally clueless." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One more time. Yes, Silk was clueless. So was Mint (see below). None of them\nknew, then, that the Ayuntamiento was composed of chems, or of Tarsier's\nengineering abilities, abilities you persistently ignore. And Rose was\n_\"largely\"_ artificial." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, within the same space of time since Kennedy was shot, the craftsmen\nwho used to build bio-prosthetics (specially designed to look old) and chem\nreplacement parts all died out without training any protégés." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I definitely didn't say that, or even suggest it. Quite the contrary; they\ncould be had, for a price. Rose didn't have the price anymore, and servant\nchems _never_ had it. In addition to the quote I have given in a previous\npost, which stated that Rose got most/all of her prosthetics at a time when\nthey were not hard to come by, forty years or more ago, here is another,\nwhich should settle the matter once and for all. It is on the fourth page of\nchapter 2 of CALDE, where Mint is giving her opening remarks at Rose's final\nrites.\n\n\"I have heard it said that she was the oldest biochemical person in this\nquarter, and it may well have been true. _She belonged to the last of those\nfortunate generations for which prosthetic devices remained_, devices whose\nprinciples are lost even to our wisest.\" (emphasis added)\n\nThe question of whether or not prosthetics can still be made, or are being\nmade, becomes moot for purposes of this argument. The quote establishes,\nonce again, that Rose got her prosthetics many years ago (two generations),\nwhen they were still readily available. That suffices to undermine your\ntheory that they came from Betel, who had taken them from a\nmurdered/martyred chem maid. There was no need for that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally, Hammerstone was never curious enough to enquire where his fiancé\nwas employed (because if he knew what she was doing at *any* time he would\nknow if she was not constantly employed at the cenoby)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except for paint, to show rank or which city to whom they belonged, the\nsoldiers all looked exactly alike--they were mass-produced by the millions.\nThere is no reason to believe that it was any different for the servant\nchems. Molybdenum looked just like Magnesia who looked just like every other\nfemchem. That's what made it so easy for Marble to lie to Hammerstone about\nbeing Moly--he couldn't tell the difference. She didn't have a faceplate\nanymore, anyway. How was he to know one femchem from another, especially\nsince he was so eager to find _any_ femchem available for reproduction.\nMarble could have been a slut from another city for all he cared. She was\nfemale and would have him; that's all that really mattered to him. He wasn't\ngoing to look a gift-horse in the mouth.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-12-02T20:51:07+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Look what you've done! I had resigned myself to let this go, and now you've\nstirred me up again. I'll take this out of order with part of your theory\nthat drives craziest:\n\nRoy said:\nExcept for paint, to show rank or which city to whom they belonged, the\nsoldiers all looked exactly alike--they were mass-produced by the millions.\nThere is no reason to believe that it was any different for the servant\nchems. Molybdenum looked just like Magnesia who looked just like every other\nfemchem. That's what made it so easy for Marble to lie to Hammerstone about\nbeing Moly--he couldn't tell the difference. She didn't have a faceplate\nanymore, anyway. How was he to know one femchem from another, especially\nsince he was so eager to find _any_ femchem available for reproduction.\nMarble could have been a slut from another city for all he cared. She was\nfemale and would have him; that's all that really mattered to him. He wasn't\ngoing to look a gift-horse in the mouth.\n\nCrush responds:\nIf one femchem was as good as another to Hammerstone, why did he leave\nMarble and have the child they were making broken up when she revealed that\nshe was Magnesia?\n\nWhether femchems **looked** the same or not (and I contend there **must**\nhave been **some** visual difference so bios could tell who they were\ndealing with and so they could locate chems who ran away without paying\ntheir building indenture), surely Hammerstone knew **something** of the\nparticular femchem he was married/engaged to like say... ***where she\nworked.**** You aren't denying I presume that Hammerstone and Moly ever\nmet?\n\nRoy also said:\nOne more time. Yes, Silk was clueless. So was Mint (see below). None of them\nknew, then, that the Ayuntamiento was composed of chems, or of Tarsier's\nengineering abilities, abilities you persistently ignore.\n\n\"I have heard it said that she was the oldest biochemical person in this\nquarter, and it may well have been true. _She belonged to the last of those\nfortunate generations for which prosthetic devices remained_, devices whose\nprinciples are lost even to our wisest.\" (emphasis added)\n\nCrush responds:\nEither Silk or Mint is less clueless than the other. Mint's statement does\nnot **deny** that the ability to **construct** bio-prosthesis from scratch\nhad been left behind on Urth. Mint clearly **presumes** that Rose's\nprosthesis, like Xiphias', were salvaged from the Short Sun days. Silk,\nbased on his discussion with Horn in LS2:1, is convinced they are **not**.\nSo I guess it **would** comes down to who you believe, except for the puzzle\nof the picture and the puzzle of trunk in LS3.\n\nTarsier's engineering skills only support my model rather than yours since\nhe used **chems** to give the Ayuntamiento bodies - which is where I say\nRose's prosthesis came from. The Ayuntamiento got the equivalent of a\n**whole body prosthesis**. There is no textual evidence he had the skill to\ndo any more than alter chem parts for bio use.\n\nRoy continues:\nThe question of whether or not prosthetics can still be made, or are being\nmade, becomes moot for purposes of this argument. The quote establishes,\nonce again, that Rose got her prosthetics many years ago (two generations),\nwhen they were still readily available. That suffices to undermine your\ntheory that they came from Betel, who had taken them from a\nmurdered/martyred chem maid. There was no need for that.\n\nCrush responds:\nWhere are you getting this? We know Rose got her parts about 40 years ago\n(probably less). Actually you have argued that she got *most* of her parts\nmore recently. That is NOT **many** years ago by any stretch, nor is it the\ntime period typically associated with \"two generations.\" It **is** a time\nperiod in which 250 year-old **salvaged** parts might begin to become scarce\nfor a wide variety of reasons. But it is not enough time for a valuable,\nlucrative craft to become rare as opposed to common. But as I say, where she\ngot the parts, depends on who you believe. If it were only Mint's testimony\nwe had to deal with we could presume Rose's prosthetics were like Xiphias'.\nBut hers is not the only testimony and we still have the picture and trunk\npuzzles.\n\nThe only reason I have for saying Betel got the parts first, is the flags in\nthe **text**. Marble insisted on continuously being shriven of her \"lie\" to\n**Betel**. Marble inherits from **Betel** yellowed ivory beads (which I\nassure you are remarkably like betel nuts in color and shape) on a silver\nchain (the color of molybdenum). Not from the text, but also significant IMO\nis that \"betel\" is a narcotic made from the leaves of the betel vine mixed\nwith mineral lime. I'd love to drop the Betel connection if I could. It\nwould make everything so much more tidy.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-12-03T03:54:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush responds:\nIf one femchem was as good as another to Hammerstone, why did he leave\nMarble and have the child they were making broken up when she revealed that\nshe was Magnesia?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I probably shouldn't even ask, but **where, in or out of the whorl, did you\nget such an idea???**" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whether femchems **looked** the same or not (and I contend there **must**\nhave been **some** visual difference so bios could tell who they were\ndealing with and so they could locate chems who ran away without paying\ntheir building indenture), surely Hammerstone knew **something** of the\nparticular femchem he was married/engaged to like say... ***where she\nworked.**** You aren't denying I presume that Hammerstone and Moly ever\nmet?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, he met her, but not at Sun Street. Moly didn't work at a cenoby. She\nwas a **housemaid** (LS3: 3), according to Hammerstone, and is so described\nin the list of characters, as distinguished from a \"maid-of-all-work\", which\nis how Marble, nee Magnesia, is described in the list of characters in LS4." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I have heard it said that she was the oldest biochemical person in this\nquarter, and it may well have been true. _She belonged to the last of those\nfortunate generations for which prosthetic devices remained_, devices whose\nprinciples are lost even to our wisest.\" (emphasis added)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy continues:\nThe question of whether or not prosthetics can still be made, or are being\nmade, becomes moot for purposes of this argument. The quote establishes,\nonce again, that Rose got her prosthetics many years ago (two generations),\nwhen they were still readily available. That suffices to undermine your\ntheory that they came from Betel, who had taken them from a\nmurdered/martyred chem maid. There was no need for that.\n\nCrush responds:\nWhere are you getting this? We know Rose got her parts about 40 years ago\n(probably less). Actually you have argued that she got *most* of her parts\nmore recently." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nope. What I actually said on the subject was: \"Rose didn't receive all her\nprosthetics at the same time, that's all; she would have scared the hell out\nof that boy if she had. Much of her face was prosthetic, both arms and both\nlegs, her \"ears\", one eye, and a host of internal organs.\"\n\nAnd, actually, Rose got her first prosthetics (the hand and arm Blood saw as\na boy) **more** than forty years ago. Blood was born when she was 40. She\nlost touch with him when he was 9. She was about 94 when she died." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is NOT **many** years ago by any stretch, nor is it the\ntime period typically associated with \"two generations.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two generations _is_ many years, in terms of a human life span." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only reason I have for saying Betel got the parts first, is the flags\nin\nthe **text**. Marble insisted on continuously being shriven of her \"lie\" to\n**Betel**. Marble inherits from **Betel** yellowed ivory beads (which I\nassure you are remarkably like betel nuts in color and shape) on a silver\nchain (the color of molybdenum). Not from the text, but also significant\nIMO\nis that \"betel\" is a narcotic made from the leaves of the betel vine mixed\nwith mineral lime. I'd love to drop the Betel connection if I could. It\nwould make everything so much more tidy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have an analogy. Not even a slingshot, much less a smoking gun. I'll\ngrant you that Wolfe doesn't always leave a smoking gun in plain sight, but\nI want to at least smell the smoke.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-12-03T16:34:24+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote before:\nIf one femchem was as good as another to Hammerstone, why did he leave\nMarble and have the child they were making broken up when she revealed that\nshe was Magnesia?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy responded:\nI probably shouldn't even ask, but **where, in or out of the whorl, did you\nget such an idea???**\n\nCrush answers:\nLS4:16\nMaytera Mint talks to Marble in the ruins of Viron:\n\"Moly! Oh, oh, Moly! May I call you Maytera Marble, just once? I've missed\nyou so!\"\n\"Be quick. I'm **about** to become an abandoned woman.\"\n\"You, Moly?\"\n\"Yes, I am.\" Maytera Marble's voice was firm as granite. \"And don't call me\nMoly, please. It's not my name. It never was. My name's Magnesia. Call me\nMaggie. Or Marble, if it makes you happy. My husband will --- never mind.\nHave you met my granddaughter, sib? This is she, but I don't think she'll\ntalk right now. You must excuse her.\"\n\"Mucor?\" Maytera Mint knelt beside the emancipated girl. \"Our calde\ndescribed you to me, and I'm an old friend of your grandmother's.\"\n\"Wake up.\" Mucor's pinched face grinned without meaning. \"Break it.\" There\nwas no hint of intelligence in her star. She said nothing further...\"\n[Scleroderma and Shrike approach and talk to Marble and Mint then Marble\nsays]\n\"I am not a sibyl anymore,\" the slender, shining figure declared. \"I **have\nbecome** an abandoned woman, as I warned you I would.\"\n\nCall me crazy but Marble must have received some sort of information,\nbetween her warning that she would become an abandoned woman and her\ndeclaration that she **was** an abandoned woman. Since Marble was\n**abandoned** then Hammerstone has left her. In terms of logic, that is a\n\"consistency by equivalence\". The only information I can see that could have\nled her to that conclusion is what Mucor said - channeling Hammerstone the\nsame way she spied on Potto in the house of Blood. The only interpretation I\ncan derive from Mucor's words is that he is having another soldier \"break\"\nthe child they said they would start on immediately (at their wedding).\n\nPerhaps you have information that Hammerstone and Marble worked things out,\nor that illuminates this scenario further...\n\nRoy wrote:\nSure, [Hammerstone] met [Moly], but not at Sun Street. Moly didn't work at a\ncenoby. She\nwas a **housemaid** (LS3: 3), according to Hammerstone, and is so described\nin the list of characters, as distinguished from a \"maid-of-all-work\", which\nis how Marble, nee Magnesia, is described in the list of characters in LS4.\n\nCrush responds:\nI suppose its **possible** to play with the text to allow this, but it is\nhard to square that with Hammerstone's assertion that he lost track of her\nduring his last 74 year nap. That pretty firmly suggests a change in the\nstatus of their relationship. If he didn't know where she was during the\nentire voyage and then he didn't know where she was after, he can hardly say\nhe lost track of her.\n\nPerhaps you know the difference between a \"housemaid\" and a\n\"maid-of-all-work.\" I don't' really know what it would be, unless one\nassumes a housemaid dusts and cleans and MOAW also gardens and cooks. Hmm.\nThis would explain why Marble's parts wore out faster than Moly's but it\ndoesn't prevent Moly from working at the cenoby which is, after all, the\nHOUSE of the sibyls.\n\nRoy wrote:\nNope. What I actually said on the subject was: \"Rose didn't receive all her\nprosthetics at the same time, that's all; she would have scared the hell out\nof that boy if she had. Much of her face was prosthetic, both arms and both\nlegs, her \"ears\", one eye, and a host of internal organs.\"\n\nAnd, actually, Rose got her first prosthetics (the hand and arm Blood saw as\na boy) **more** than forty years ago. Blood was born when she was 40. She\nlost touch with him when he was 9. She was about 94 when she died.\n\nTwo generations _is_ many years, in terms of a human life span.\n\nCrush responds:\nFine. Rose got her first prosthetics less than **50** years. 50 years IS NOT\na long time in terms of craftsmanship and knowledge. It is the amount of\ntime most commonly associated with the career of ONE person. 40 years is the\namount of time most typically associated with ONE generation. LESS THAN 50\nyears is not nearly enough time for a valuable, vital craft to become rare\nwhen it was common, barring some catastrophe akin to the fall of Rome - and\neven that took hundreds of years. Imagine losing the technology of the\ninternal combustion engine in the next 50 years (except to a favored few) so\nthat almost everyone has to go back to horses. It's that plausible.\n\nRoy wrote:\n[As for Crush's theories regarding Betel's association with Moly] You have\nan analogy. Not even a slingshot, much less a smoking gun. I'll grant you\nthat Wolfe doesn't always leave a smoking gun in plain sight, but I want to\nat least smell the smoke.\n\nCrush responds:\nWe clearly are of different constitutions regarding smoke. This smoke makes\nme cough. It's just my way to ask myself (when reading) \"why did he write\nthis?\" But more importantly, I tend to test my theories on Wolfe's stories\nagainst plausibility.\n\nProsthetics made to look old for no apparent reason...\n\nHammerstone \"loses track\" of someone when he was never sure where she was in\nthe first place...\n\nSilk saying (as Rose totters by with her half mechanical body) wouldn't it\nbe nice if we could build Rose some prosthetics... or even fly!...\n\nA common, valuable, useful technology (as opposed to merely artifacts)\nbecomes rare...just because.\n\nI'm not seeing it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-12-03T17:39:27+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 03/12/2002 16:34:24 James Wynn wrote:\nPerhaps you know the difference between a \"housemaid\" and a\n\"maid-of-all-work.\" I don't' really know what it would be, unless one\nassumes a housemaid dusts and cleans and MOAW also gardens and cooks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This would explain why Marble's parts wore out faster than Moly's but it\ndoesn't prevent Moly from working at the cenoby which is, after all, the\nHOUSE of the sibyls." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Caveat that one doesn't know how Wolfe understands the terms nor if he\nintended the distinction to be at all significant, or if the American\ncultural context makes a difference.\n\nIn a smaller establishment the terms might be used interchangeably.\nPrincipally I suspect to make the one member of the domestic staff - the\nmaid of all work - feel a little better about scrubbing steps and blacking\ngrates by upping her status because...\n\nIn a household where there were sufficient domestics to make the hierarchy\nmatter.\n\nParlour maid: looks after public rooms and might, for lack of a footman\nserve teas or even formal meals.\n\nChamber maid takes care of private rooms and by extention might be a\nlady's dresser which otherwise would fall to a...\n\nLadies Maid.\n\nA house maid might work in the public parts of the establishment but\nwithout the particular duties or status of the parlour maid.\n\nA Scullery maid washes pots for the kitchen and is the lowest of the low.\n\nA kitchen maid might assit the cook or might be no more than a scullery\nmaid who doesn't get her hands wet so often.\n\nA Tweenie, or between stairs maid was one who might be called upon to do\nduty anywhere from the kitchen upwards depending on where labour was\nneeded and might well have been sweeping those stairs daily. That's the\nclosest to a maid of all work in such a structured environment.\n\nIf you think this is silly....\n\n I'm afraid you're right. It's silly.\n\nI'm reasonably certain that even in it's best years the Cenoby would not\nhave extended to that many maids and if Marble or Molybdenum wroked in a\ngrander private house we don't see it to judge.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ranjit Bhatnagar", "address": "ranjit at moonmilk.com" }, "date": "2002-12-05T05:04:49+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nMarble inherits from **Betel** yellowed ivory beads (which I\nassure you are remarkably like betel nuts in color and shape) on a\nsilver chain (the color of molybdenum)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should probably have restrained myself here, but you know what they say:\nif your maytera had Betel's nuts, she'd be your patera." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-12-05T05:11:03+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Poor Moly", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Ranjit Bhatnagar wrote:\nCrush wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marble inherits from **Betel** yellowed ivory beads (which I\nassure you are remarkably like betel nuts in color and shape) on a\nsilver chain (the color of molybdenum)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I should probably have restrained myself here, but you know what they say:\nif your maytera had Betel's nuts, she'd be your patera." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was Wilt Chamberlain, as I recall.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] } ] }