Subject: (urth) Poor Moly

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 08:49:55 +0000

>Crush responds:
>Raise one hand and one hand only. Now tell me how you snap your "FINGER"
>(singular). <g>

I don't see why you're hung up on the one-hand-or-two angle. Marble took
both of Rose's hands, but even one hand that looks like an old woman's hand
suffices to establish that it did not originally come from a dismantled chem
maid. *After* the possession of Marble/Rose by Echidna was over, while the
Rose personality was telling Silk about the birth of Blood, she took hold of
one of Silk's hands: "Her hand--he recognized it now as Maytera
Rose's--found his." (LS3: 4) He knew it was Rose's because it looked like an
old woman's hand. The hand Blood cut off is such a hand. From the talus
factory chapter of LS4, page 138: "Maytera Marble had passed her basket to
Swallow; he took off the white towel that had covered her now-lifeless right
hand and held it up, in appearance the hand of an elderly woman."

>There is no doubt that the parts came from a dismantled chem. Silk's
>conversation with Horn in LS2:1 proves beyond argument that Rose's
>prosthetics were not made originally for bios. Silk says quite clearly that
>(1)such technology was left behind on Urth and (2)while Xiphias' leg was
>such an artifact, Rose's definitely were not. The onus is on you to explain
>where they came from if not from a chem?

The onus *isn't* on me--it's your theory that the parts came from a
dismantled chem. In any event, I've already provided an answer in an earlier
post. Tarsier, for one, had the know-how, as evidenced by the highly
customized, glow-in-the-dark body he provided for Lemur. The arms of that
body required a much higher degree of technical knowledge to build than a
cosmetic veneer on a prosthetic hand. Further, the list of characters in
LAKE says of Tarsier that he was "expert on architecture and engineering". I
doubt that he was unique.

>Marble (impersonating Moly) in LS3:10 says she had been at the Sun St.
>cenoby since before humans came to Viron. The onus is on you to explain
what
>happened to Moly.

Moly is your problem, not mine. She doesn't appear in the books. I wouldn't
say that Marble was impersonating Moly; she was just lying. Marble's meeting
with Hammerstone is not related in the books. I don't know what she told
him, but her name was *never* Molybdenum; it was Magnesia before she became
a sibyl, just as she told Mint. (LS4, 359)

>Maybe you can show why anyone would create "bony blue-veined" prosthetic
>hands for ***anyone***, but I'm afraid I find the concept absurd.

The fact remains that, like it or not, that's the way the text has it.

>I've explained why the hands looked like that during Musk's sacrifice.

You were wrong, as I've shown. That's the way they looked, period.

While I'm at it, I may as well shoot some more holes in your theory. You
maintain, on your Molybdenum web page, that "old worn-out" Marble was made a
teacher, while (hypothetical, to me) Moly, "whose parts were still in good
condition", was dismantled to provide parts for *Betel*. I must point out
that, soldier or servant, *all the chems are the same age*. If, as you
maintain, "Moly" was at Sun Street from Day One, and if, as the text states,
the maid had no room at the cenoby because chems didn't need one, because a
chem maid worked 24/7, then why should one maid be in much better condition
than another? Why should a cenoby built for six sibyls even *need* two
maids, when they work 24/7?

And that business about Betel getting all those prosthetics: that's not in
the text, not even the need for them. You go further and claim that Rose
inherited those prosthetics from Betel. That must have made quite a sight.
Betel was "fat", whereas Rose was "such a small woman". (LS3: 4)

As you postulate young Pike as Blood's father, then all this unholy
dismantling took place on his watch. And to think, the Outsider thought so
well of him as to grant him enlightenment. Three sibyls--Betel, Rose, and
Marble--and an augur all kept their mouths shut about the murder/martyrdom
of a chem maid. Or are you going to tell me that Pike didn't notice that a
maid was missing from the complex for forty-fifty years? Or that he was a
fellow conspirator?

You also state on your page that Hammerstone, after his 74-year 'sleep',
went to Sun Street looking for his lost love, Moly. Pure fabrication,
directly contradicted by the text:

    "'I had to go on reserve. I went to sleep, and when I woke up I wasn't
stationed in the city any more. Maybe I should've gone looking for Moly.' He
shrugged. 'Only I figured by then she'd found somebody else. Just about all
of them had.'" (LS3: 3)

-Roy

--

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:21:39 +0000

Some nice catches in your last post. Thanks.

But in your verbose post, somehow you never addressed the fact that Silk
says bio prosthetic technology was not available to Rose and Marble (LS3:1).
I realize there is a reason you missed it. <g>

Her "LIE" about being at the Sun St. cenoby since before humans came to
Viron was made in front of Hammerstone and Hammerstone would have known if
it weren't true of Moly. That's simply beyond debate.

I maintain, I haven't really changed on this, that the "old hands" you
mention are an intriguing mystery, but they affect not at all the two points
above.

Again, thanks for the refinements on my Molybdenum story. They are greatly
appreciated.

-- Crush

--

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:31:04 +0000

Oops! The conversation was in LS2:1.

--

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 02:51:53 +0000

>I realize there is a reason you missed it. <g>

I didn't miss it. Silk is a 23-year old mama's boy, a year-and-a-half out of
the seminary. His ignorance is encyclopedic. At that point in the story he
thinks old-time pictures and sounds that once came out of computer terminals
are really gods. He doesn't know that the Ayuntamiento is composed of chems,
that a lander is a spaceship, that Mainframe is a computer bank, that the
_Whorl_ is a mote in a vast universe outside. He knows nothing about women.
He was taught at the schola that black mechanics don't exist, along with a
lot of other nonsense that he lacks the intellectual wherewithal to question
until he has his nose rubbed in it, if then. He doesn't know any better,
because he is a product of his nurturing and, to quote Shaw, "thinks that
the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature". He learns
better, eventually.

He doesn't know, yet, that the _Whorl_ is a machine that is wearing out
rapidly, just like Marble. He thinks the malfunction of the 'seasons' is due
to the displeasure of the "gods". Within a week of the opening of the story
he learns a great many things that turn the foundations of his worldview
upside down. One of the things he learned was that individuals such as
Tarsier could, and did, provide customized prosthetics like those
demonstrated by Lemur--for a price. Chem servants didn't have the price;
they were de facto slaves. If Marble had had the gelt, she could have bought
new/refurbished parts. She didn't; she couldn't even pay for a welding job
on her severed hand. The same goes for bios. Notice that in the text in
question Silk laments the lack of prosthetics for Marble and Rose and "for
all the beggars who are blind or crippled". Beggars, Crush, beggars. Just
like the legions of poor bios in the quarter who can't afford to be treated
by a doctor. The wealthy don't have that problem. If wealthy bios need
prosthetics, they can evidently be found. Or do you suppose Silk was just
discriminating against the wealthy when he expressed his regrets?

I repeat; it was only in the last few decades that prosthetics became
scarce. They were not hard to find when Rose got most of hers, 40-50 years
ago. In fact, when chems were more common, they had their own "doctors". As
Swallow told Silk: "A doctor who specializes in chems should have one
[opticsynapter], but I don't know of one here in Viron." (LS4, 139) Chem
"doctors" were hard to find because their 'patients' had worn out and
'died'. Cause of death: poverty.

>it weren't true of Moly. That's simply beyond debate.

Nonsense. Hammerstone wasn't there when the cenoby was staffed. He was a
soldier. Other than for periodic calls to active duty to pull CQ or in time
of war, he, like the rest of the soldiers, spent most of his life 'asleep'.
Think about it; his courtship of Moly was on-going when he last was ordered
to sleep, something over 74 years ago. Viron was stocked with people more
than 300 years ago. Given the 7-8 to 1 ratio of male to female chems he
claims, do you really think he wasted two centuries or more courting her
without popping the question?

>mention are an intriguing mystery, but they affect not at all the two
points

Then I can say no more.

-Roy

--

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 15:10:46 +0000

Ok, Roy, I think I got it now. Your contention is that Silk was so clueless
that he wasn't aware that prosthetics were available even though there was a
sibyl (just across the courtyard) who was about half artificial. Horn was
equally clueless.

Also, within the same space of time since Kennedy was shot, the craftsmen
who used to build bio-prosthetics (specially designed to look old) and chem
replacement parts all died out without training any protégés.

Finally, Hammerstone was never curious enough to enquire where his fiancé
was employed (because if he knew what she was doing at *any* time he would
know if she was not constantly employed at the cenoby).

I don't see a way to bridge the gap between us --- which is a shame, because
I think the "old hands" references you've pointed out bears investigation,
but you and I seem to be the only people interested.

-- Crush

--

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 17:19:26 +0000

Roy C having written:

> As you postulate young Pike as Blood's father,=20

Ahem ... While I have no idea whether Crush knows this or not,
Gene Wolfe holds the same hypothesis. Once upon a time, moments
before I first joined this list back in '97, Gene Wolfe answered
a passel of questions from this list in a sort of informal
email interview. The entire article, "Train from Wolfeland,"
was posted by Mantis and can be found in the archives at
http://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0006/0350.shtml -- however
the relevant question and answer are quite short:

> 12. "Who was Blood's father?"  Patera Pike.

As for the Outisder thinking "well" of Pike, well, if we=20
identify the Outsider as the God worshipped by Christians,
then He has a quite uncanny fondness for repentant sinners...

--

---

From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 17:48:30 +0000

>then He has a quite uncanny fondness for repentant sinners...

Thank you for reminding me about that.

Some of those questions and answers might stomp on a few of the currently
debated theories.

Matthew

--

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 18:21:02 +0000

Blattid said:
While I have no idea whether Crush knows this or not,
Gene Wolfe holds the same hypothesis... Gene Wolfe answered
a passel of questions from this list...

Crush writes:
This is one of the few moments where Wolfe's answers in those questions
confirmed my thoughts rather than left me chagrined.

I came to this opinion thusly:

1. To whom else would Rose have sexual access? Not a long list there.

2. Pike (spear) penetrates the Rose (of Sharon) and out comes Blood with
Musk(water)

That's the way I think, which probably does not inspire others to follow
where I lead.

-- Crush

--

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 19:44:19 +0000

>sibyl (just across the courtyard) who was about half artificial. Horn was

One more time. Yes, Silk was clueless. So was Mint (see below). None of them
knew, then, that the Ayuntamiento was composed of chems, or of Tarsier's
engineering abilities, abilities you persistently ignore. And Rose was
_"largely"_ artificial.

>replacement parts all died out without training any protégés.

I definitely didn't say that, or even suggest it. Quite the contrary; they
could be had, for a price. Rose didn't have the price anymore, and servant
chems _never_ had it. In addition to the quote I have given in a previous
post, which stated that Rose got most/all of her prosthetics at a time when
they were not hard to come by, forty years or more ago, here is another,
which should settle the matter once and for all. It is on the fourth page of
chapter 2 of CALDE, where Mint is giving her opening remarks at Rose's final
rites.

"I have heard it said that she was the oldest biochemical person in this
quarter, and it may well have been true. _She belonged to the last of those
fortunate generations for which prosthetic devices remained_, devices whose
principles are lost even to our wisest." (emphasis added)

The question of whether or not prosthetics can still be made, or are being
made, becomes moot for purposes of this argument. The quote establishes,
once again, that Rose got her prosthetics many years ago (two generations),
when they were still readily available. That suffices to undermine your
theory that they came from Betel, who had taken them from a
murdered/martyred chem maid. There was no need for that.

>know if she was not constantly employed at the cenoby).

Except for paint, to show rank or which city to whom they belonged, the
soldiers all looked exactly alike--they were mass-produced by the millions.
There is no reason to believe that it was any different for the servant
chems. Molybdenum looked just like Magnesia who looked just like every other
femchem. That's what made it so easy for Marble to lie to Hammerstone about
being Moly--he couldn't tell the difference. She didn't have a faceplate
anymore, anyway. How was he to know one femchem from another, especially
since he was so eager to find _any_ femchem available for reproduction.
Marble could have been a slut from another city for all he cared. She was
female and would have him; that's all that really mattered to him. He wasn't
going to look a gift-horse in the mouth.

-Roy

--

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 20:51:07 +0000

Look what you've done! I had resigned myself to let this go, and now you've
stirred me up again. I'll take this out of order with part of your theory
that drives craziest:

Roy said:

Crush responds:
If one femchem was as good as another to Hammerstone, why did he leave
Marble and have the child they were making broken up when she revealed that
she was Magnesia?

Whether femchems **looked** the same or not (and I contend there **must**
have been **some** visual difference so bios could tell who they were
dealing with and so they could locate chems who ran away without paying
their building indenture), surely Hammerstone knew **something** of the
particular femchem he was married/engaged to like say... ***where she
worked.****  You aren't denying I presume that Hammerstone and Moly ever
met?

Roy also said:
One more time. Yes, Silk was clueless. So was Mint (see below). None of them
knew, then, that the Ayuntamiento was composed of chems, or of Tarsier's
engineering abilities, abilities you persistently ignore.

Crush responds:
Either Silk or Mint is less clueless than the other. Mint's statement does
not **deny** that the ability to **construct** bio-prosthesis from scratch
had been left behind on Urth.  Mint clearly **presumes** that Rose's
prosthesis, like Xiphias', were salvaged from the Short Sun days. Silk,
based on his discussion with Horn in LS2:1, is convinced they are **not**.
So I guess it **would** comes down to who you believe, except for the puzzle
of the picture and the puzzle of trunk in LS3.

Tarsier's engineering skills only support my model rather than yours since
he used **chems** to give the Ayuntamiento bodies - which is where I say
Rose's prosthesis came from. The Ayuntamiento got the equivalent of a
**whole body prosthesis**. There is no textual evidence he had the skill to
do any more than alter chem parts for bio use.

Roy continues:

Crush responds:
Where are you getting this? We know Rose got her parts about 40 years ago
(probably less). Actually you have argued that she got *most* of her parts
more recently. That is NOT **many** years ago by any stretch, nor is it the
time period typically associated with "two generations." It **is** a time
period in which 250 year-old **salvaged** parts might begin to become scarce
for a wide variety of reasons. But it is not enough time for a valuable,
lucrative craft to become rare as opposed to common. But as I say, where she
got the parts, depends on who you believe. If it were only Mint's testimony
we had to deal with we could presume Rose's prosthetics were like Xiphias'.
But hers is not the only testimony and we still have the picture and trunk
puzzles.

The only reason I have for saying Betel got the parts first, is the flags in
the **text**. Marble insisted on continuously being shriven of her "lie" to
**Betel**. Marble inherits from **Betel** yellowed ivory beads (which I
assure you are remarkably like betel nuts in color and shape) on a silver
chain (the color of molybdenum). Not from the text, but also significant IMO
is that "betel" is a narcotic made from the leaves of the betel vine mixed
with mineral lime. I'd love to drop the Betel connection if I could. It
would make everything so much more tidy.

-- Crush

--

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 03:54:47 +0000

>Marble and have the child they were making broken up when she revealed that

I probably shouldn't even ask, but **where, in or out of the whorl, did you
get such an idea???**

>worked.****  You aren't denying I presume that Hammerstone and Moly ever

Sure, he met her, but not at Sun Street. Moly didn't work at a cenoby. She
was a **housemaid** (LS3: 3), according to Hammerstone, and is so described
in the list of characters, as distinguished from a "maid-of-all-work", which
is how Marble, nee Magnesia, is described in the list of characters in LS4.

>more recently.

Nope. What I actually said on the subject was: "Rose didn't receive all her
prosthetics at the same time, that's all; she would have scared the hell out
of that boy if she had. Much of her face was prosthetic, both arms and both
legs, her "ears", one eye, and a host of internal organs."

And, actually, Rose got her first prosthetics (the hand and arm Blood saw as
a boy) **more** than forty years ago. Blood was born when she was 40. She
lost touch with him when he was 9. She was about 94 when she died.

>That is NOT **many** years ago by any stretch, nor is it the
>time period typically associated with "two generations."

Two generations _is_ many years, in terms of a human life span.

>would make everything so much more tidy.

You have an analogy. Not even a slingshot, much less a smoking gun. I'll
grant you that Wolfe doesn't always leave a smoking gun in plain sight, but
I want to at least smell the smoke.

-Roy

--

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:34:24 +0000

>Crush wrote before:

Roy responded:

Crush answers:
LS4:16
Maytera Mint talks to Marble in the ruins of Viron:
"Moly! Oh, oh, Moly! May I call you Maytera Marble, just once? I've missed
you so!"
"Be quick. I'm **about** to become an abandoned woman."
"You, Moly?"
"Yes, I am." Maytera Marble's voice was firm as granite. "And don't call me
Moly, please. It's not my name. It never was. My name's Magnesia. Call me
Maggie. Or Marble, if it makes you happy. My husband will --- never mind.
Have you met my granddaughter, sib? This is she, but I don't think she'll
talk right now. You must excuse her."
"Mucor?" Maytera Mint knelt beside the emancipated girl. "Our calde
described you to me, and I'm an old friend of your grandmother's."
"Wake up." Mucor's pinched face grinned without meaning. "Break it." There
was no hint of intelligence in her star. She said nothing further..."
[Scleroderma and Shrike approach and talk to Marble and Mint then Marble
says]
"I am not a sibyl anymore," the slender, shining figure declared. "I **have
become** an abandoned woman, as I warned you I would."

Call me crazy but Marble must have received some sort of information,
between her warning that she would become an abandoned woman and her
declaration that she **was** an abandoned woman. Since Marble was
**abandoned** then Hammerstone has left her. In terms of logic, that is a
"consistency by equivalence". The only information I can see that could have
led her to that conclusion is what Mucor said - channeling Hammerstone the
same way she spied on Potto in the house of Blood. The only interpretation I
can derive from Mucor's words is that he is having another soldier "break"
the child they said they would start on immediately (at their wedding).

Perhaps you have information that Hammerstone and Marble worked things out,
or that illuminates this scenario further...

Roy wrote:
Sure, [Hammerstone] met [Moly], but not at Sun Street. Moly didn't work at a
cenoby. She
was a **housemaid** (LS3: 3), according to Hammerstone, and is so described
in the list of characters, as distinguished from a "maid-of-all-work", which
is how Marble, nee Magnesia, is described in the list of characters in LS4.

Crush responds:
I suppose its **possible** to play with the text to allow this, but it is
hard to square that with Hammerstone's assertion that he lost track of her
during his last 74 year nap. That pretty firmly suggests a change in the
status of their relationship. If he didn't know where she was during the
entire voyage and then he didn't know where she was after, he can hardly say
he lost track of her.

Perhaps you know the difference between a "housemaid" and a
"maid-of-all-work."  I don't' really know what it would be, unless one
assumes a housemaid dusts and cleans and MOAW also gardens and cooks. Hmm.
This would explain why Marble's parts wore out faster than Moly's but it
doesn't prevent Moly from working at the cenoby which is, after all, the
HOUSE of the sibyls.

Roy wrote:

Crush responds:
Fine. Rose got her first prosthetics less than **50** years. 50 years IS NOT
a long time in terms of craftsmanship and knowledge. It is the amount of
time most commonly associated with the career of ONE person. 40 years is the
amount of time most typically associated with ONE generation. LESS THAN 50
years is not nearly enough time for a valuable, vital craft to become rare
when it was common, barring some catastrophe akin to the fall of Rome - and
even that took hundreds of years. Imagine losing the technology of the
internal combustion engine in the next 50 years (except to a favored few) so
that almost everyone has to go back to horses. It's that plausible.

Roy wrote:
[As for Crush's theories regarding Betel's association with Moly] You have
an analogy. Not even a slingshot, much less a smoking gun. I'll grant you
that Wolfe doesn't always leave a smoking gun in plain sight, but I want to
at least smell the smoke.

Crush responds:
We clearly are of different constitutions regarding smoke. This smoke makes
me cough. It's just my way to ask myself (when reading) "why did he write
this?" But more importantly, I tend to test my theories on Wolfe's stories
against plausibility.

Prosthetics made to look old for no apparent reason...

Hammerstone "loses track" of someone when he was never sure where she was in
the first place...

Silk saying (as Rose totters by with her half mechanical body) wouldn't it
be nice if we could build Rose some prosthetics... or even fly!...

A common, valuable, useful technology (as opposed to merely artifacts)
becomes rare...just because.

I'm not seeing it.

--

---

From: matthew.malthouse <matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 17:39:27 +0000

>doesn't prevent Moly from working at the cenoby which is, after all, the

Caveat that one doesn't know how Wolfe understands the terms nor if he
intended the distinction to be at all significant, or if the American
cultural context makes a difference.

In a smaller establishment the terms might be used interchangeably.
Principally I suspect to make the one member of the domestic staff  - the
maid of all work - feel a little better about scrubbing steps and blacking
grates by upping her status because...

In a household where there were sufficient domestics to make the hierarchy
matter.

Parlour maid: looks after public rooms and might, for lack of a footman
serve teas or even formal meals.

Chamber maid takes care of private rooms and by extention might be a
lady's dresser which otherwise would fall to a...

Ladies Maid.

A house maid might work in the public parts of the establishment but
without the particular duties or status of the parlour maid.

A Scullery maid washes pots for the kitchen and is the lowest of the low.

A kitchen maid might assit the cook or might be no more than a scullery
maid who doesn't get her hands wet so often.

A Tweenie, or between stairs maid was one who might be called upon to do
duty anywhere from the kitchen upwards depending on where labour was
needed and might well have been sweeping those stairs daily.  That's the
closest to a maid of all work in such a structured environment.

If you think this is silly....

  I'm afraid you're right.  It's silly.

I'm reasonably certain that even in it's best years the Cenoby would not
have extended to that many maids and if Marble or Molybdenum wroked in a
grander private house we don't see it to judge.

Matthew

--

---

From: Ranjit Bhatnagar <ranjit at moonmilk.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 05:04:49 +0000

Crush wrote:

> Marble inherits from **Betel** yellowed ivory beads (which I
> assure you are remarkably like betel nuts in color and shape) on a
> silver chain (the color of molybdenum).

I should probably have restrained myself here, but you know what they say:
if your maytera had Betel's nuts, she'd be your patera.

--

---

From: Josh Geller <dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 05:11:03 +0000

> if your maytera had Betel's nuts, she'd be your patera.

It was Wilt Chamberlain, as I recall.

.

--